Ditch the power suit!

Lee Griffith: 00:00:04

Don't wear hot pants to a board meeting.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:06

What!

Lee Griffith: 00:00:06

You're listening to How To Take The Lead with Lee

Lee Griffith: 00:00:08

Griffith

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:09

and Carrie-Ann Wade.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:10

Two corporate colleagues turned business

Lee Griffith: 00:00:12

besties, who question everything we've ever learned about

Lee Griffith: 00:00:14

leadership.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:15

What started with us putting the world to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:17

rights over a gin after work is now a weekly show challenging

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:20

the myths and perceptions and exploring what leadership looks

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:23

like in the modern day.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:24

We'll also be sharing our experiences and

Lee Griffith: 00:00:26

stories along the way.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:27

You can find our show notes at

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:29

howtotakethelead.com

Lee Griffith: 00:00:30

Hit subscribe to receive new episodes every

Lee Griffith: 00:00:32

Thursday.

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Plus we'd love for you to rate or leave a

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review of the show.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:36

And please share your thoughts and stories on the

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topics we cover using the hashtag how to take the lead.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:41

Hello, and welcome to episode two of how to take the lead.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:49

There's a second episode!

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:50

I know, already. This is the whole point

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:54

of the podcast though, to do more than one epsiode so wel

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:56

will have to get used to this.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:59

So today's episode, we are chatting about

Lee Griffith: 00:01:02

something that's actually quite close to both of our hearts.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:06

Sorry, that does sound really cheesy doesn't it? I've been

Lee Griffith: 00:01:08

watching too much American TV. But it's a topic that's come up

Lee Griffith: 00:01:13

in practically every series that we did when we were doing our IG

Lee Griffith: 00:01:17

live shows and and it's notion of being yourself at work, so

Lee Griffith: 00:01:22

not feeling like you have to change who you are to fit in.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:25

Anyone that's heard me talk about my journey before will

Lee Griffith: 00:01:28

have heard me say about my perceptions when I went into

Lee Griffith: 00:01:31

management. And that pressure to look a certain way to fit in.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:35

So, for me it started with the clothes, then it became my

Lee Griffith: 00:01:38

personality that I was trying to change and then suddenly I

Lee Griffith: 00:01:41

didn't recognise who I was. My values, were in lost property

Lee Griffith: 00:01:46

somewhere and it all just started to feel a bit dirty. And

Lee Griffith: 00:01:51

it was only really at the point that I got saturated and felt

Lee Griffith: 00:01:56

fed up that I thought no I just need to be myself and when I

Lee Griffith: 00:02:00

started to be more of myself, leaving my hair to be curly,

Lee Griffith: 00:02:06

ditching the powersuit, wearing flat shoes, oh my goodness, if I

Lee Griffith: 00:02:10

felt like it. It was only then that I really started to gain

Lee Griffith: 00:02:15

confidence in my role. And I think people took me more

Lee Griffith: 00:02:20

seriously but that may well have just been my projection because

Lee Griffith: 00:02:23

I got more comfortable because it's a hard once test in

Lee Griffith: 00:02:26

hindsight. So it's been something that I've really been

Lee Griffith: 00:02:30

interested in ever since. And I think now with my new hat on in

Lee Griffith: 00:02:34

the business, it's something that I work with leaders on

Lee Griffith: 00:02:37

around building their personal brands and when that, the look

Lee Griffith: 00:02:43

and feel part of the brand discussion comes up, it's led to

Lee Griffith: 00:02:48

some really interesting discussions. You know what the

Lee Griffith: 00:02:50

expectations are that are out there. Are there going to be

Lee Griffith: 00:02:54

taken seriously you know, what's the business etiquette is if

Lee Griffith: 00:02:57

it's written down in some bible somewhere. And it's men and

Lee Griffith: 00:03:01

women it's not just you know, I've had conversations with.

Lee Griffith: 00:03:03

I've always been really forthright in my view that

Lee Griffith: 00:03:09

you're more likely to build connection with yourself when

Lee Griffith: 00:03:12

you yourself when you feel comfortable. People absolutely

Lee Griffith: 00:03:16

can see through fakes. So you have to bring your personnel to

Lee Griffith: 00:03:19

work to work. You know, that's what I've learned over time.

Lee Griffith: 00:03:23

But, you know, I know we've talked about this before, but I

Lee Griffith: 00:03:26

would love to know where you you're at now I suppose

Lee Griffith: 00:03:29

Yeah. So so how do you judge what's appropriate,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:29

Yeah, absolutely, I think we talked

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:29

Carrie-Ann.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:31

about being authentic and I think that's a word that some

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:34

people love and some people might what does that even mean?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:38

But I do think it's genuinely what we talked about around

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:41

being yourself in the workplace, being able to represent who you

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:45

are in your role as a leader because I don't believe that all

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:48

of a sudden you're a different person because you've got to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:52

work at eight in the morning and you're a leader now, like you're

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:56

one person, there's lots of facets to you, but you are who

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:59

you are. And I think it's interesting what you said around

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:03

it started with the clothes and the appearance stuff. And then

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:06

it kind of, it progressed from there in terms of your journey

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around feeling comfortable with yourself or not in that space,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:14

and I think absolutely agree with the bit about appearance

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and there are these expectations that within the first seven

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seconds people make a judgement about you. That's how long

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:24

you've got to make a first impression. So a lot of that is

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:27

bound to be based on appearance, isn't it and what you like but I

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:31

think that kind of yeah, that comes with some downsides

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:35

doesn't it, around these expectations of how you have to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:38

look and how you have to dress in the workplace to be a senior

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:42

person or a leader in an organisation. But then

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:44

absolutely agree it goes beyond that. We talked about ditching

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:48

the power suit and always think about the big shoulder pads but

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:52

with the big shoulder pads I think sometimes particularly in

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:55

my experience with women, comes the pointy elbows as well to go

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:59

with the big shoulder pads and that kind of whole vibe that

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:03

they used to be around, you know, maybe that more alpha

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female type leadership role model and that's, you know, I

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:09

didn't see people who had personalities like mine or

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:12

traits like mine in leadership roles for a very long time in my

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:16

corporate career, actually because I just saw women who

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:19

came across more like men, and acted more like men and spoke

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:23

more like men. I feel like saying I don't feel like I felt

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:26

they were women who were assertive leaders. I felt like

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:30

they were borderline aggressive. And I felt like that's how I'd

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:33

have to be then if I wanted to be a leader. And it wasn't until

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:37

I saw slightly different leadership styles in that space,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:40

but I felt more comfortable and more competent to think that

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:44

it's okay to be myself. And absolutely your point about the

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:48

way people see through fakes but if you'd be like going for a job

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:51

interview and acting like you're a totally different person,

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you'll soon get found out if you get recruited on the basis of

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:59

that interview and then you go into the job, and you're totally

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:06:02

different. So I genuinely do think you have to be yourself.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:06:06

But I do think that's easier said than done. In quite a few circumstances.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:06:15

you know, what, how do you know? There's probably some really

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:06:20

obvious things don't wear hot pants to a board meeting.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:06:23

What?

Lee Griffith: 00:06:25

Note for the summer there.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:06:27

Not to self, no sequined hot pants for the next

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:06:31

board meeting.

Lee Griffith: 00:06:33

If you've got a really kinky side, leave it in

Lee Griffith: 00:06:36

the bedroom, you know appropriateness, I suppose it's

Lee Griffith: 00:06:42

that understanding what's that level of appropriateness. And,

Lee Griffith: 00:06:46

you know, if you work somewhere where the rules are really

Lee Griffith: 00:06:48

rigid, and you feel you can't be yourself, how do you understand

Lee Griffith: 00:06:53

if the red lines that are there are real red lines or actually

Lee Griffith: 00:06:58

it's a it's an organisation and a culture that's got it's head

Lee Griffith: 00:07:01

stuck up its backside and actually does need to shake up

Lee Griffith: 00:07:04

in a change? It's a hard one to judge.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:05

And some of that is about how confidenty ou

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:07

feel about testing those waters. I guess which again is another

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:11

easier said than done. But you know, if you work in an

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:14

organisation where everybody turns up wearing, you know

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:17

wearing grey suits and white shirts, regardless of what

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:20

gender you are like, what happens if you decide that

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:23

you're going to wear a bright colour? What happens if you

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:26

decide you're wearing a red, red you know, red trousers to work

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:29

and judging that reaction a bit. And I think sometimes we can be

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:33

a bit nervous to challenge that status quo, so we don't do it

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:36

and we start to conform because we're worried about a reaction

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:40

without necessarily understanding what that reaction

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:42

might be and more often than not, sometimes there isn't one.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:46

Or people go oh, wow, really like, you know, what you're

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:49

wearing today. It's really bright and colourful or

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:52

whatever. And so sometimes think we go in with our own worries

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:55

that we're going to create this big stir without actually

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:58

necessarily, like knowing that that's the case. But then

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:01

there's also a bit of me that if it then is questioned in the

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:05

workplace, you need to feel confident, you can ask for

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:08

clarity about what that issue is. And I think that's when

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:11

you'll find that maybe it is a bit of a non issue because once

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:14

people are questioned about so you know what doesn't matter if

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:18

I'm wearing bright colours today and not black, grey and navy.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:21

I'm not quite clear. Can you explain to me what the issue is?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:25

That you'll find people can't really explain that other than

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:28

that they find it a little bit uncomfortable because it's

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:31

different to what they used to. And then it it almost kind of

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:34

takes the takes the heat out of that issue because it really

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:38

isn't one when you come to have a conversation about it.

Lee Griffith: 00:08:41

Yeah. And it's weird because particularly, if

Lee Griffith: 00:08:45

you work in an organisation that perhaps doesn't have a uniform,

Lee Griffith: 00:08:49

or in a department within an organisation where you don't

Lee Griffith: 00:08:52

have to wear a uniform, there isn't necessarily policies,

Lee Griffith: 00:08:55

procedures that that dictate not like when you're at a school and

Lee Griffith: 00:08:58

they say, oh, you've got to wear, we had a riot of school

Lee Griffith: 00:09:01

because someone this is actually really true. So a kid shaved

Lee Griffith: 00:09:06

their head, that left a little fringe, this is peak 90s by the

Lee Griffith: 00:09:09

way, and they were hauled in front of the assembly to be made

Lee Griffith: 00:09:15

an example of because they had the wrong haircut that the

Lee Griffith: 00:09:17

breached school rules. And then the whole school rioted and the

Lee Griffith: 00:09:21

head teacher got sacked and you know, it's all over the north

Lee Griffith: 00:09:24

Wales news at the time. But it's like, you don't necessarily get

Lee Griffith: 00:09:29

that in a workplace. And I suppose yes, you could see what

Lee Griffith: 00:09:34

other people are wearing or doing, but it can be hard to

Lee Griffith: 00:09:38

make that judgement. I know I used to be just to get my hair

Lee Griffith: 00:09:43

cut made me self conscious. Are they going to comment on my hair

Lee Griffith: 00:09:46

today or you've had a haircut and I didn't like attention? So

Lee Griffith: 00:09:49

it can be really simple things versus you know, do I wear heels

Lee Griffith: 00:09:53

or flats?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:09:54

It's really weird how some very simple

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:09:58

things like how many times have you been in a situation where

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:01

you or someone else has maybe dressed slightly more work than

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:05

they normally would and get the comment have you been for an

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:07

interview? Yeah, that's like a standard like line isn't it,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:11

like just because back then you might have decided that you

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:14

wanted to feel a bit smarter because you could do the

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:16

presentation or whatever. So I think there's something about

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:20

appropriateness of the scenario. And again, that's about

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:22

expectations. If you went into an interview scenario, there

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:26

wouldn't be an expectation that you've made maybe more of an

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:30

effort than you would normally make to look smart, whether

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:32

that's right or wrong. And again, probably not a hot pant

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:35

scenario, depends on what job it is that you're going for an

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:38

interview for. But I feel like you can make an effort and still

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:42

be you and I have to be honest, I don't own a suit and I've

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:45

never worn a suit to an interview. But then there'll be

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:48

lots of people that do because that's what's expected. But

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:51

actually, if I put a suit on, I would feel really uncomfortable

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:55

and so much less likely myself that that would almost become an

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:59

issue for me that would probably affect my confidence in that

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:02

interview because I'd be more aware of what I was wearing

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:06

because I put a suit on.

Lee Griffith: 00:11:08

Well do you know the stress of just buying a

Lee Griffith: 00:11:11

suit, I mean, the meltdowns I've had in the Next changing room

Lee Griffith: 00:11:14

back in the day. You're right, I felt better when I became more

Lee Griffith: 00:11:24

senior and I went for interviews and I wore a dress with a nice

Lee Griffith: 00:11:28

little jacket or something, but not a suit but a nice jacket. I

Lee Griffith: 00:11:31

felt smart but I felt I was representing myself.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:35

I also think I'm just going say this but I

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:39

think the pandemic has changed things quite a lot because

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:42

people spent so much time out of the office environment, out of

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:46

like physical environments. So we're all on the screens with

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:49

our elasticated waist, maybe I wear leggings on the bottom but

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:55

you know when we go in a bit more for comfort because many of

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:59

us have been working from home. more. Actually, when I've gone

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:02

back into my office environment and I'm a leader in my

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:05

organisation, I actually haven't thought twice about wearing

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:08

trainers to the office in a way that before I'd wear them to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:13

drive in and then put my heels on. And I'm like, well, my

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:16

clothes are still smart enough for the workplace. And what does

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:19

it matter that I've got trainers in the bottom, but it's sort of

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:23

weird that that's a conscious thing to be thinking about

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:26

because it feels so different. But I also think it's proved

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:30

that like just because I've not got heels on doesn't mean I'm

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:32

not going to be good at my job today.

Lee Griffith: 00:12:35

Although this is me getting on my soapbox, but if

Lee Griffith: 00:12:38

you watch The Apprentice like they are still starting to, I

Lee Griffith: 00:12:43

mean they are perpetuating aren't they?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:48

Powersuits, sky high heels if you're a woman and

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:50

you're running around. Very rarely see the women in that

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:53

wearing trousers, it's always dresses. The guys in suits and

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:56

ties. It's almost like oh he's gone casusal today because he

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:12:59

has taken his tie off. Like yeah, that actually perpetuates

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:03

the whole powersuit business leader image I'm not keen on.

Lee Griffith: 00:13:08

And they're all small business owners asking for

Lee Griffith: 00:13:12

money investing in their small business so actually their

Lee Griffith: 00:13:16

attire couldn't be any more inappropriate from for what it

Lee Griffith: 00:13:19

is that they do and I just, it would be so refreshing to see

Lee Griffith: 00:13:23

these things represented or be more representative on in the

Lee Griffith: 00:13:27

media and on TV and shows like that because I do just think

Lee Griffith: 00:13:31

people carry on with the issue. I mean, House of Commons, the

Lee Griffith: 00:13:37

fact that who what was it? Jeremy Hunt or someone, was on

Lee Griffith: 00:13:41

a zoom call during pandemic and didn't have a tie on for

Lee Griffith: 00:13:44

goodness sake. And you've got rees-Mogg or hatever his name

Lee Griffith: 00:13:51

is, getting the etiquette police saying oh he should be wearing a

Lee Griffith: 00:13:55

tie and I'm like oh my goodness we've got bigger things to worry

Lee Griffith: 00:13:59

about in the world.He needs

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:59

He needs to be wearing his pyjamas more

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:01

considering how many times he has a little power nap

Lee Griffith: 00:14:04

It's that notion that you know you've got to

Lee Griffith: 00:14:11

lead, if you look at Jacinda Ardern, you know she wears nice

Lee Griffith: 00:14:25

dresses. I think she gets that balance really well and she's

Lee Griffith: 00:14:29

setting a good role model type vibe for people out there and

Lee Griffith: 00:14:34

what you can dress like as leader don't have to be in a

Lee Griffith: 00:14:37

black or blue navy suit all the time. Anyway, I will step off my

Lee Griffith: 00:14:43

If you are starting out in your communications career or you're

Lee Griffith: 00:14:43

soapbox.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:44

Do you want a hand getting down or are you

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:46

alright?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:49

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Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:55

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for you please visit www.cats-pajamas.co.uk to find

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out more and you can even book your free discovery call.

Lee Griffith: 00:15:23

If you're enjoying this episode of How To Take The

Lee Griffith: 00:15:25

Lead, please hit subscribe and go leave a review or rating.

Lee Griffith: 00:15:29

We'd also love to hear your stories and thoughts on today's

Lee Griffith: 00:15:32

topic. Please DM us our details are in the show notes or tag us

Lee Griffith: 00:15:35

into your socials using the hashtag how to take the lead.

Lee Griffith: 00:15:40

I suppose the one thing that I'm really mindful of is that we're

Lee Griffith: 00:15:44

sat here as two white, middle class women. And we're having

Lee Griffith: 00:15:48

this conversation through that lens. And we know obviously

Lee Griffith: 00:15:52

there's discrimination that women face in the workplace

Lee Griffith: 00:15:54

there was all that stuff that hit the news a few years ago

Lee Griffith: 00:15:57

about women being forced to wear short skirts and heels into an

Lee Griffith: 00:16:01

office environment for examples. We know that kind of stuff

Lee Griffith: 00:16:04

happens. But there was a report out earlier this month, called

Lee Griffith: 00:16:08

Broken Ladders, we'll leave the link to it in the show notes,

Lee Griffith: 00:16:12

which said that 61% of women of colour reported that they were

Lee Griffith: 00:16:16

having to change to fit in and this compared to something like

Lee Griffith: 00:16:21

44% of white women. And women were saying that they had to

Lee Griffith: 00:16:26

change their language, what they spoke about, their hair, what

Lee Griffith: 00:16:30

they ate, sometimes their name, just fit in. So yeah, it's

Lee Griffith: 00:16:35

really easy for us to sit here and say, you know, lean into

Lee Griffith: 00:16:38

your personality. Don't be scared and all of that stuff.

Lee Griffith: 00:16:41

But obviously there is a huge, huge problem out there, that

Lee Griffith: 00:16:46

does stem from racial and sexual discrimination. And it got me

Lee Griffith: 00:16:50

thinking that obviously as leaders, there's a role that you

Lee Griffith: 00:16:55

have to not only think of yourself, but to think of the

Lee Griffith: 00:16:59

role that you have of making change happen in your

Lee Griffith: 00:17:04

organisations. So that they don't feel discriminated

Lee Griffith: 00:17:07

against. So there's this for me that thing around, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:17:11

what are you as a leader doing to make sure that your

Lee Griffith: 00:17:13

organisation is being inclusive and that you're tackling

Lee Griffith: 00:17:15

discrimination. And that you will do real actions and you're

Lee Griffith: 00:17:20

monitoring the right stuff and you're empowering people all of

Lee Griffith: 00:17:23

that and I'm sure we'll get into that as a separate topic at some

Lee Griffith: 00:17:27

point because it's really important I don't want to kind

Lee Griffith: 00:17:29

of wash over it, but I do think the other the other element of

Lee Griffith: 00:17:33

it is that as a leader, if you start showing up as yourself,

Lee Griffith: 00:17:39

think of how empowering and the message that can set for your

Lee Griffith: 00:17:43

teams who perhaps feel that they can't fit in. So I think

Lee Griffith: 00:17:47

actually it isn't just about do I wear heels or not. It can send

Lee Griffith: 00:17:51

a really powerful message.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:53

Yeah, absolutely. I think you're

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:55

absolutely right. You need to consider what your role is as a

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:58

leader as a role model within your team within your

Lee Griffith: 00:17:59

Oh, she went right in on the right in on the

Lee Griffith: 00:18:02

organisation and beyond. I think it's so easy for leaders and

Lee Griffith: 00:18:05

organisations to say, you know, we really value diversity, we

Lee Griffith: 00:18:09

really value like your unique perspective and what you bring

Lee Griffith: 00:18:13

to the workplace. So you know, we want you to bring the best

Lee Griffith: 00:18:17

version of you, but actually, how do you go on to kind of show

Lee Griffith: 00:18:21

that, for that not just to be words that you say? So there's

Lee Griffith: 00:18:25

something about I think it's your role as a leader to be

Lee Griffith: 00:18:28

comfortable, you know, not conforming to all of those

Lee Griffith: 00:18:31

stereotypes, to be okay with yourself demonstrating that

Lee Griffith: 00:18:35

you're, your version of you and that you're not being a bit

Lee Griffith: 00:18:39

fake. So I think that you also have to be able to have, I guess

Lee Griffith: 00:18:43

some of those conversations and invite those conversations to

Lee Griffith: 00:18:46

happen as a leader, but you need to understand where some of this

Lee Griffith: 00:18:51

is, is acting out in your organisation and ask people what

Lee Griffith: 00:18:54

it is that we could be doing to make people feel more

Lee Griffith: 00:18:58

comfortable with that space, because I don't think we can

Lee Griffith: 00:19:01

assume to know. You talked about it just now, we are coming at

Lee Griffith: 00:19:05

this as two white women so we can't assume to know what

Lee Griffith: 00:19:09

changes might need to happen to make other people who are

Lee Griffith: 00:19:12

different to us feel able to be their authentic selves in the

Lee Griffith: 00:19:16

workplace. I think if there is something about that kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:19:20

openness and transparency of conversation, and the ability to

Lee Griffith: 00:19:24

do some active listening and take some action in that space,

Lee Griffith: 00:19:27

definitely. I mean I also think sometimes women are sometimesour

Lee Griffith: 00:19:31

worst enemies. I've been in situations before, one example

Lee Griffith: 00:19:35

I've been on a course where there were quite a lot of very

Lee Griffith: 00:19:39

young women who were starting out their leadership journeys

Lee Griffith: 00:19:42

and they had someone there giving advice and one of the

Lee Griffith: 00:19:46

questions from one of the delegates was, you know, what

Lee Griffith: 00:19:49

advice could you give me about going for interviews for more

Lee Griffith: 00:19:53

senior roles in my profession, and the very first bit of advice

Lee Griffith: 00:19:57

that this woman gave, who was there as the keynote speaker was

Lee Griffith: 00:20:01

"Well, I would suggest that maybe you might straighten your

Lee Griffith: 00:20:05

hair before you have your interview."

Lee Griffith: 00:20:05

personal?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:08

Right in on appearance, like my chin hit the

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:12

table, and I'm like, are you actually kidding me? And I'm

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:16

like, that's a, that's not constructive and helpful b, what

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:20

difference really should make into somebody's ability to be

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:23

able to do a job. And actually what this person is looking for

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:26

is some really practical helpful advice about how to prep for

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:29

interviews for the more senior roles, not to be told that you

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:32

don't fit because your hair's curly. Really?

Lee Griffith: 00:20:36

Did anyone challenge that?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:38

I tried to challenge it and got shut down

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:40

quite quickly in the conversation got moved on. And,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:44

and what was weird was that everybody afterwards had a

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:47

conversation about how inappropriate it was, but waited

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:50

until the speaker was gone, kind of wasn't in the room to have

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:52

that conversation. But again, I think there was something there

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:55

about the dynamic, it was quite young individuals who are at

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:21:01

early stages in their leadership journeys with somebody who was

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:21:04

quite a lot older and more experienced. So maybe there was

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:21:07

an acceptance that we don't challenge this view and

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:21:10

actually, they know best so I feel like there's still so much

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:21:14

work to do in this area to be honest with you now we have

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:21:16

started talking about it.

Lee Griffith: 00:21:18

And it's an interesting thing, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:19

absolutely. That is not inappropriate, that's not

Lee Griffith: 00:21:22

appropriate guidance to be given someone but that doesn't - I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:21:27

almost going to go back on myself a little bit, but that

Lee Griffith: 00:21:30

doesn't preclude that you shouldn't give advice to people

Lee Griffith: 00:21:33

if you think there are things to, I know that certainly in my

Lee Griffith: 00:21:36

career, I've had to speak to people just to suggest that

Lee Griffith: 00:21:41

they, you know, smartened up for interview or whatever and it

Lee Griffith: 00:21:45

isn't because you know, they weren't wearing a suit but it

Lee Griffith: 00:21:48

was because they were wearing a little vest top and looked like

Lee Griffith: 00:21:51

they were gonna sit out in a garden rather than, and you just

Lee Griffith: 00:21:54

knew that they weren't represented, people weren't

Lee Griffith: 00:21:57

going to look beyond their looks. And so you're like, you

Lee Griffith: 00:22:01

know, put cardigan on or do something that just elevates you

Lee Griffith: 00:22:05

a little bit but still feels comfortable for you.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:09

Yeah, and I think it's back to that point,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:11

about appropriateness for the scenario so like judge the

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:14

environment you're going to be in and think about what works

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:17

but how you can put your take on it and represent your

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:20

personality. I've had to have those same conversations before

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:23

where I've worked with somebody who, you know, would wear super

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:27

high heels and fairly short skirts to work and actually, in

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:30

our office environment, like didn't really make a difference,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:34

but actually, they were going to be going to do a visit to a male

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:37

forensic mental health ward and it's like you actually need to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:40

think about, you know, how you're going to represent

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:42

yourself in that environment, not only for you, but for the

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:47

people that you're going to be around all day. And actually,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:49

that probably isn't necessarily going to be the most appropriate

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:52

attire to wear and actually, there might be a uniform policy

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:55

that staff adhere to because it's in a clinical, very

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:58

different environment. But I think you have to be able to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:01

have those conversations without feeling like it's something

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:04

awkward

Lee Griffith: 00:23:05

Yeah, yeah, but coming from the right space, not

Lee Griffith: 00:23:08

just because you personally don't like something or you

Lee Griffith: 00:23:12

think or you're trying to perpetuate the issues that you

Lee Griffith: 00:23:17

see because you think that's the culture of the organisation or

Lee Griffith: 00:23:21

whatever. I do think there is, I worked with it a Chief Exec

Lee Griffith: 00:23:26

once and we had conversation about does he wear a tie or not.

Lee Griffith: 00:23:30

And you think what a trivial of all the stuff you could talk

Lee Griffith: 00:23:35

about, but that was a big thing for them. Because they were so

Lee Griffith: 00:23:40

used to being like I'm a man who has to wear a suit and tie

Lee Griffith: 00:23:43

because that's what's expected of me in a corporate

Lee Griffith: 00:23:45

environment. Do you ever wear a suit and tie when you're at home

Lee Griffith: 00:23:50

or go out places and he's like, no, I don't. Just wear what you

Lee Griffith: 00:23:55

feel comfortable, roll your sleeves up and take your tie off

Lee Griffith: 00:23:58

and actually the difference in his demeanour when he started

Lee Griffith: 00:24:02

doing that he became more personable because he felt more

Lee Griffith: 00:24:05

comfortable in his skin.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:06

And it is funny, isn't it how what you

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:08

wear can be. It feels like it's very trivial but can almost take

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:11

up quite a lot of time and energy in terms of focus. So

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:15

again another example of very senior director who had their

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:18

first experience oncall in a health setting, and I was the

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:24

comms person oncall. There'd been a fire at a local hospital

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:27

that needed to be evacuated. Actually, the senior director

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:32

role was actually to be being more strategic thinking about

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:35

what's going to be happening in the aftermath, there was

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:37

somebody onsite managing the immediate issue. But they phoned

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:41

for two bits of advice. The first bit was should they go to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:44

the hospital site? And my advice at the time was not if you don't

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:48

need to because it's under control. And actually you need

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:51

to be thinking about what happens tomorrow, in a week's

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:53

time, you know, two weeks time so I don't know what value

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:57

you're going to be adding by going. The second question haing

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:25:02

ignored the fact that I didn't think they should go, was if I

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:25:04

go should I wear a suit? That is honest to God, two o'clock in

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:25:08

the morning conversation with somebody. And it's, again, I

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:25:12

don't think you need to be going to site if you're going to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:25:14

choose to go, it doesn't really matter what you wear and

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:25:18

probably not because they're evacuating patients from

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:25:20

hospitals. So do you need to be wearing a suit for that and

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:25:24

their view was because it would show that I've got authority

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:25:27

it's like but have you because it's not your role to either

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:25:29

anyway, sorry, I digress into a whole other conversation

Lee Griffith: 00:25:32

It' true that you know, you look at again, you go

Lee Griffith: 00:25:35

back to the politicians, they do their big walk abouts talk and

Lee Griffith: 00:25:39

go and visit people in different places. Sometimes yes, a suit

Lee Griffith: 00:25:43

does work when they're just doing the meet and greets

Lee Griffith: 00:25:46

walking down the street type piece, they look really

Lee Griffith: 00:25:49

uncomfortable and out of place. I mean, that could just be

Lee Griffith: 00:25:51

because their politicians are really not connected to the

Lee Griffith: 00:25:54

world. But they do and sometimes they look really awkward. So I

Lee Griffith: 00:26:01

do think that there is something about leaning into what you feel

Lee Griffith: 00:26:07

comfortable with. Assessing the environment and situation that

Lee Griffith: 00:26:12

you're in. So our how to moment if you've listened to this

Lee Griffith: 00:26:18

epsiode, you're feeling inspired, but perhaps

Lee Griffith: 00:26:21

questioning what's next, I'm sure we've got some actionable

Lee Griffith: 00:26:24

tips you can take forward. I'm going to hand over to my

Lee Griffith: 00:26:28

esteemed colleague.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:26:29

Oh blimey, the pressure but my first tip is

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:26:33

definitely work out what you feel particularly in the privacy

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:26:40

but it doesn't actually have to just be about your appearance,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:26:42

work out what makes you feel most confident in the workplace.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:26:46

And what helps you to feel like you're going to smash it at

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:26:48

work, thats my number one thing to go away and think about. And

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:26:52

I also think consider whether whether there's an opportunity

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:26:55

to initiate discussions, maybe in your own team or more broadly

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:26:59

in your organisation to ask people for their views about

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:03

this. And actually what would help them feel more comfortable

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:07

showing up being authentic in the workplace. If you've got an

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:10

outdated, uniform policy about what people have to wear, can

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:14

you use that as your starting point? To really start having

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:17

some conversations about this because it sounds trivial, but

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:21

actually, fundamentally, what we're saying is sometimes it's

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:23

the sort of stuff that can stop people feeling like they can

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:27

show up and be their best in the workplace, and that's absolutely

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:30

not what we're wanting to convey.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:33

And I think that has a ripple effect on the whole

Lee Griffith: 00:27:38

culture of an organisation so it can seem really minor, but

Lee Griffith: 00:27:44

actually is probably one of the biggest signifiers of how staff

Lee Griffith: 00:27:51

are feeling. I really like that. I think my only addition would

Lee Griffith: 00:27:58

be to recognise the role you play as a role model. And so

Lee Griffith: 00:28:04

yes, you may well feel really comfortable wearing a suit and

Lee Griffith: 00:28:10

tie, but just think about actually the what that might

Lee Griffith: 00:28:16

bring up for people and what that might be stopping other

Lee Griffith: 00:28:22

people from doing. So there is a reflection piece aswell.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:28

Thanks for listening to today's episode of

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:29

How To Take The Lead

Lee Griffith: 00:28:30

Don't forget to hit subscribe to the first to

Lee Griffith: 00:28:32

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Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:34

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Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:36

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Lee Griffith: 00:28:38

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Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:41

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Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:43

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Lee Griffith: 00:28:44

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Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:46

Until next week, get out there and take the