Episode 3

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Published on:

23rd Jun 2022

Our biggest leadership lessons

In this episode of How to Take the Lead, we wanted to share some of our learning from our careers to date so you get the chance to find out a little more about us and our leadership lessons.

We share our individual experiences and some of our shared learning, including:

  • 02:15 – being open to new opportunities without compromising your boundaries
  • 04:56 - making the right impact in a new job
  • 17:10 - support networks and developing yourself
  • 21:07 – realising you don’t have to be like all the other leaders you see

Our takeaways from this episode will help you to reflect on your own career to date, thinking about the good, the bad and the ugly in terms of your experiences of leadership and how you can adapt and nurture your leadership style for the future.

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If you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe to the podcast. We would love it if you left us a rating or review and feel free to share the link to this episode with anyone else you think would find it interesting, using #HowToTakeTheLead

You can find out more about Lee Griffith via www.sundayskies.com and about Carrie-Ann Wade at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk

Get social with us:

Follow or message Lee on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram.

Follow or message Carrie-Ann on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram.

In the next episode we are going to be focused on emotional intelligence, what it is and how to consider it when you are building your leadership team. Until then, get out there and take the lead.

Transcript
Carrie-Ann Wade:

Before anybody thinks Lee's trying to say that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I just recruit any old body willy nilly into my team - yeah

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you seem nice, come on in!

Lee Griffith:

You're listening to How To Take The Lead with Lee

Lee Griffith:

Griffith

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and Carrie-Ann Wade

Lee Griffith:

Two corporate colleagues turned business

Lee Griffith:

besties who question everything we've ever learned about

Lee Griffith:

leadership.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

What started with us putting the world to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

rights over a gin after work is now a weekly show, challenging

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the myths and perceptions and exploring what leadership looks

Carrie-Ann Wade:

like in the modern day.

Lee Griffith:

We'll also be sharing our experiences and

Lee Griffith:

stories along the way.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

You can find our show notes at

Carrie-Ann Wade:

howtotakethelead.com

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to episode three of our podcast series.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Lee, it's lovely to see you.

Lee Griffith:

Lovely to see you too. It's been too long.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

It's been a while how are you? What have you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

been up to since the last episode?

Lee Griffith:

It's basically been eat, drink, sleep, take the

Lee Griffith:

dog out for a poo. On cycle.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Take the dog out for a poo - I love it. On

Carrie-Ann Wade:

repeat.

Lee Griffith:

Basically. I hope your life's had a bit more

Lee Griffith:

meaning and purpose to it.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I did I think eat sleep repeat. Definitely.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'd like to get I'd like to get a bit more nice rested sleep

Carrie-Ann Wade:

which just doesn't happen for me but that's just how it is. And

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'd like the sun to come back out. Last time we were last time

Carrie-Ann Wade:

we were chatting it was a nice sunny, sunny day and now today

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I've got rain and I feel cold and chilly and back to autumnal

Carrie-Ann Wade:

vibes. So roll on some proper summer. That's what I say.

Lee Griffith:

I've got a comfies on, yes, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So we thought you might like to find out a

Carrie-Ann Wade:

little bit more about us and our leadership journeys. So we

Carrie-Ann Wade:

thought we'd share some of our leadership lessons in case

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you've got to episode three and you were thinking what did this

Carrie-Ann Wade:

pair know about leading anything? We thought it might be

Carrie-Ann Wade:

helpful to share some of some of our leadership lessons that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

we've encountered through our own journeys so I'll get to it,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

if you're happy for me to jump straight in and share one of my

Carrie-Ann Wade:

mine Lee. I would definitely say refelcting on my kind of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

leadership journey, there's definitely been something to me

Carrie-Ann Wade:

about trying to step up into the space before you've got that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

actual job that you're going for. Quite often in my

Carrie-Ann Wade:

leadership journey, it has been about getting that promotion,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

stepping up into the next senior role. And I think for me, one of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

my learnings definitely been about how do you step into and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

act into that space before you've got the job? I think for

Carrie-Ann Wade:

me almost trying to demonstrate that I'm capable and ready for

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that next step. So I've always offered to take on things that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

maybe support my development, stretch me a bit outside of the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

current role that I've been in. And that's been something I've

Carrie-Ann Wade:

always been keen to do. Although I will put a word of warning on

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that one, don't do it too much otherwise, basically, you just

Carrie-Ann Wade:

end up doing two jobs for the price of one. So that would be

Carrie-Ann Wade:

my caveat on that one. But definitely for me there's been

Carrie-Ann Wade:

something about trying to identify those opportunities and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

kind of stepping into that space for sure.

Lee Griffith:

It's a bit like doing a power pose, isn't it?

Lee Griffith:

Like yeah, when they when they say do the power pose and it

Lee Griffith:

will make you feel comfortable and confident? Yeah, it's like

Lee Griffith:

taking the action. So you can almost picture yourself in that

Lee Griffith:

role. If you start doing the actions of that role.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah, absolutely. Definitely something

Carrie-Ann Wade:

about that confidence building. And I guess a little opportunity

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to test out whether it is something you do really want to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

do. Because there might be times when you aspire to certain

Carrie-Ann Wade:

things in your career that actually when the reality hits

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and you're like this is not what I thought it was gonna be like

Carrie-Ann Wade:

at all.

Lee Griffith:

Totally. I mean, I was like that with managing

Lee Griffith:

people. I always thought I'd be so much easier if I was just in

Lee Griffith:

charge. And then I got in charge I was I really don't like this.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

It's not for me, I'm not enjoying this at

Carrie-Ann Wade:

all.

Lee Griffith:

So try it before you buy it.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Try before you buy it. And I think there's

Carrie-Ann Wade:

something about sort of research and as well what people who are

Carrie-Ann Wade:

recruiting into these positions that you're aspiring to step

Carrie-Ann Wade:

into, really might be looking for, say, for example, in some

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of my earlier roles, and I think it's less like this now

Carrie-Ann Wade:

actually, but in some of my earlier roles, it was definitely

Carrie-Ann Wade:

this professional development need, you might need to have

Carrie-Ann Wade:

certain qualifications or certain things, sort of as part

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of your development journey. So for me, it was about early doors

Carrie-Ann Wade:

research in some of those and then investing in in my own

Carrie-Ann Wade:

development to be able to demonstrate that I was sort of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

taking that seriously and that I do want to develop myself. So

Carrie-Ann Wade:

yeah, that was that was just for me the first thing that sprang

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to mind as an early part of my my leadership life or journey to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

becoming a leader.

Lee Griffith:

I love that. So one of my learnings is almost

Lee Griffith:

looking at it from the other way. So you've you've got that

Lee Griffith:

job that you've aspired to and when you step into that

Lee Griffith:

position, potentially in a new organisation, one of my biggest

Lee Griffith:

bits of learning was how you enter that well, and you make

Lee Griffith:

sure you're making the right impact. So I think when I moved

Lee Griffith:

into one of my first senior leadership positions, I thought

Lee Griffith:

that they expected me to come in and transform and turn

Lee Griffith:

everything around, which was the brief they gave me. And I

Lee Griffith:

thought that meant they were really unhappy with a few that

Lee Griffith:

had been before so I played to that a bit. And I didn't really

Lee Griffith:

think about actually the thoughts and feelings of people

Lee Griffith:

who've been there before. And I didn't really need to show that

Lee Griffith:

I was better than everyone else. Someone sat me down it was my

Lee Griffith:

line manager at the time, who said look, you know, you're

Lee Griffith:

doing a great job. But just remember that this person before

Lee Griffith:

spent six months working on this project and you coming in saying

Lee Griffith:

you know everything needs to change isn't really going to get

Lee Griffith:

on very well with them. So you know, just just be a bit more

Lee Griffith:

considerate of other people and it was the first time I'd

Lee Griffith:

actually I thought oh shit you know, I hadn't really thought

Lee Griffith:

that people would react in that way. I thought they were

Lee Griffith:

expecting me to come in and do the big bang. And there is a way

Lee Griffith:

that you can enter an organisation that still makes a

Lee Griffith:

big bang, but without disrupting and upsetting people.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I think that can be a sort of easy thing

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to do. Because you're always so focused on you and how you want

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to land in the organisation and the fact you've got that next

Carrie-Ann Wade:

big job and that big task ahead of you that it can be quite

Carrie-Ann Wade:

easy, I think to be so focused on that, then you almost fo

Carrie-Ann Wade:

forget a little bit that there are other people who are going

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to be impacted by the fact that there's a new new leader or a

Carrie-Ann Wade:

new person kind of running the show.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, so it's a really sombring moment for me,

Lee Griffith:

and it was one that you know, over a decade, plus years on, I

Lee Griffith:

still think about that moment and is definitely carved and

Lee Griffith:

changed the way that I approach when I'm starting new

Lee Griffith:

relationships. And actually, the work I do now, as well is

Lee Griffith:

helping people to enter into their new jobs in a way that

Lee Griffith:

makes the right impact because I completely recognise that

Lee Griffith:

perhaps I didn't in every aspect.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

should say about like things that stick with you that people

Carrie-Ann Wade:

feed back to you because quite often it can be those moments of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

feedback or a comment that somebody makes that maybe sticks

Carrie-Ann Wade:

with you in terms of kind of how you progress forward and how you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

move forward. And definitely for me, there's been something

Carrie-Ann Wade:

about, it's kind of linked to my first learning, more around kind

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of saying yes to opportunities more and identifying

Carrie-Ann Wade:

opportunities that might broaden your horizons give you that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

development, chance that you might not have and I I remember

Carrie-Ann Wade:

being a bit of a moaner actually, I was being a moaning

Carrie-Ann Wade:

mini about like, I always come to this meeting and all they

Carrie-Ann Wade:

talk about is one specific topic, one specific part of the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

industry that I work within and I was like it really gets my

Carrie-Ann Wade:

goat, like, I would get really frustrated by it because

Carrie-Ann Wade:

shouldn't there be much broader opportunities to talk about

Carrie-Ann Wade:

other stuff. And I just remember the person said to me if you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

don't like it, you know what you can do, do something about it.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Like, oh right, yeah, okay. It's probably not the best thing to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

just be moaning without taking action. And that led to me,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

putting myself forward for something, stepping out of my

Carrie-Ann Wade:

comfort zone being the chair of a national network, which would

Carrie-Ann Wade:

never have come about really if somebody hadn't challenged me to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

go it's almost like if you want to see a difference you have to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

be the difference. Just be don't just be sat at the back moaning

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and throwing the rotten tomatoes but actually step up and make

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that difference. That kind of comment always sticks with me

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and I always think that now, if there's stuff that I am feeling

Carrie-Ann Wade:

a bit uncomfortable with, or doesn't feel right or it's not

Carrie-Ann Wade:

hitting the mark, for me, actually, what's my

Carrie-Ann Wade:

responsibility in that particularly as a leader to take

Carrie-Ann Wade:

some actions and maybe try to exert some positive change? So

Carrie-Ann Wade:

yeah, that was quite interesting.

Lee Griffith:

It links quite closely with a lot of stuff we

Lee Griffith:

have talked about in the past about integrity, and integrity

Lee Griffith:

being everything and absolutely, that means taking action against

Lee Griffith:

stuff that you hold strong beliefs or views. Also it means

Lee Griffith:

it's one of my kind of biggest learnings is that it can also

Lee Griffith:

not just mean say yes, but say no to stuff. And sometimes it

Lee Griffith:

might be about going against what you've been told to do by

Lee Griffith:

someone but it can be really hard when you're, maybe it's

Lee Griffith:

someone more senior than you that's giving you direction to

Lee Griffith:

do something, but it goes against what you believe or your

Lee Griffith:

values or whatever. And I think it's a real character building

Lee Griffith:

moment when you first come up against that type of situation.

Lee Griffith:

Where you're like, right? I could technically take the

Lee Griffith:

action that they wish but it just doesn't sit right with me

Lee Griffith:

and you have to start thinking through what are the

Lee Griffith:

consequences if I don't take this action or stand up for

Lee Griffith:

myself in this moment? And work out if it's worth it and all of

Lee Griffith:

those types of things and it can and it can feel really, really

Lee Griffith:

big thing. Often, it's probably not, in the grand scheme but it

Lee Griffith:

can tend to be one of those first moments of conflict that

Lee Griffith:

you reach.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'm gonna, I'm gonna put you on the spot and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

say like, can you remember or how did it feel that kind of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

first time or first few times where you felt that you had to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

say no or say the opposite of maybe what else has been said?

Lee Griffith:

I mean, I can remember a couple of times where

Lee Griffith:

I took the action. So I sat up and I think probably it was a

Lee Griffith:

feeling of almost thinking that they made me more hardened. When

Lee Griffith:

it came up again, I think links back to one of our previous

Lee Griffith:

episodes from talking about being comfortable in ourselves

Lee Griffith:

when I started to, I suppose when I realised there was a

Lee Griffith:

disconnect between behaviours and attitudes and people and my

Lee Griffith:

values and I decided that I was going to lead like myself. I

Lee Griffith:

can't just start stopped giving a flying, whatever. You know, I

Lee Griffith:

can remember actually having quite an argument with my chief

Lee Griffith:

exec at the time because they wanted me to do something. It

Lee Griffith:

was really against what I was right. And I and the buzz I felt

Lee Griffith:

afterwards for standing up for myself and standing up to them

Lee Griffith:

definitely outweighed the feelings that I felt when I took

Lee Griffith:

actions before but might have been a bit more people pleasing,

Lee Griffith:

if that makes sense.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah, I think the people pleasing thing is

Carrie-Ann Wade:

really interesting because I'm naturally a people pleaser. I'm

Carrie-Ann Wade:

fairly conflict avoid I would say and it's taken me a long

Carrie-Ann Wade:

time in my career, to think that it's okay to set some boundaries

Carrie-Ann Wade:

because I guess fundamentally, what you're talking about is

Carrie-Ann Wade:

being clear with your boundaries, doing some of that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

boundary setting and that was probably language that I didn't

Carrie-Ann Wade:

really hear until I was further on in my career. So probably

Carrie-Ann Wade:

early doors, I wouldn't have thought about setting a boundary

Carrie-Ann Wade:

in the workplace about anything. I probably just linked to my

Carrie-Ann Wade:

first learning point about saying yes more maybe saying yes

Carrie-Ann Wade:

a bit too much because it is like doing that people pleaseing

Carrie-Ann Wade:

think. It hasn't been until a bit later into my career and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

working life that I really had conversations about boundary

Carrie-Ann Wade:

setting and being clear with expectations and it being ok to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

say no about things. I think that can be a bit of an eye

Carrie-Ann Wade:

opener and a bit enlightening to go actually, it's alright to say

Carrie-Ann Wade:

no I don't have capacity or no that's not a priority. It took a

Carrie-Ann Wade:

while for me to realise that was ok.

Lee Griffith:

And do you think that that is linked to rising up

Lee Griffith:

the ranks and your seniority felt like you gave more

Lee Griffith:

permission to yourself to say no to stuff because that will show

Lee Griffith:

leadership? Do you think if you had stayed you would have been

Lee Griffith:

in the same place in terms of that learning experience?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I think possibly, yeah, I think from a

Carrie-Ann Wade:

leadership because you're more responsible for other people's

Carrie-Ann Wade:

activity and what they're doing at work as well and you feel the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

need maybe to be a bit more protective of your teams time or

Carrie-Ann Wade:

your organisation's time in terms of making them focus on

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the right things. So I think that boundary setting and that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

ability to say no becomes a bit more prominent in your working

Carrie-Ann Wade:

life. Although I think some of it maybe comes a bit with age as

Carrie-Ann Wade:

well and just becoming more confident in yourself as an

Carrie-Ann Wade:

individual. I guess quite a lot of these lessons we're talking

Carrie-Ann Wade:

about in terms of life as a leader, but I guess some of them

Carrie-Ann Wade:

are equally as transferable into your personal life and how you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

choose to operate as a person. So I think, I think probably a

Carrie-Ann Wade:

mixture both, of the seniority and rising through and the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

confidence as a person to say actually, that's not for me, or

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I don't actually need to do that, there's a better way and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

feeling confident to have those conversations.

Lee Griffith:

So what would you go back to, you know, if you're

Lee Griffith:

going to speak to the young Carrie-Ann when you were first

Lee Griffith:

entering the workplace, what would you be saying to her?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I think I would be saying stop being such a

Carrie-Ann Wade:

people pleaser. It's easy to say now in hindsight, isn't it and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

when it's part of your natural make up to be a people pleaser,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

but actually, to say, I think I would be saying something like

Carrie-Ann Wade:

people don't expect you to say yes, all the time. I think

Carrie-Ann Wade:

people actually expect in the workplace a bit of healthy

Carrie-Ann Wade:

challenge if it gets you to a positive outcome. I don't think

Carrie-Ann Wade:

people necessarily always want a yes person.

Lee Griffith:

I think people do strangely respect you more if

Lee Griffith:

you do put your boundaries in place and say no to things.

Lee Griffith:

Obviously, as we said before, if things are overplayed they can

Lee Griffith:

become a weakness you need to make sure you don't become the

Lee Griffith:

Debbie Downer that's always saying no, but if you've got a

Lee Griffith:

logic and a reason and a rationale of why you're saying

Lee Griffith:

no to something or sticking to that boundary or protecting

Lee Griffith:

space or whatever it might be. I think people respect you more

Lee Griffith:

and probably will be more likely to follow your lead

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Absolutely and I think there is something about

Carrie-Ann Wade:

demonstrating respect for yourself as well in doing that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I think that respec is's a good thing. It's a good thing to be

Lee Griffith:

Are you are an established or aspiring CEO

Lee Griffith:

thinking about.

Lee Griffith:

looking to maximise your impact in the workplace? At Sunday

Lee Griffith:

Skies I help you get clear on your big vision, create a

Lee Griffith:

strategy that connects and the communication plan to deliver

Lee Griffith:

it. No matter where you are in your CEO journey, through my

Lee Griffith:

unqiue blend of coaching and consulting, I will give you the

Lee Griffith:

strategy, support and space to succeed in post. Visit

Lee Griffith:

sundayskies.com to find out more and sign up for my email to

Lee Griffith:

receive intelligence and information that will challenge

Lee Griffith:

and change the way you lead.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

If you're enjoying this episode of How To

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Take The Lead please hit subscribe and why not leave a

Carrie-Ann Wade:

review or rating. We'd also love to hear your stories and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

thoughts on today's topic. Please DM us, our links are in

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the show notes or tag us into your socials using the hashtag

Carrie-Ann Wade:

how to take the lead.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I think for me one of the things around boundary seting and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

understanding more about what your personality type is and how

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that might impact you in the workplace has definitely having

Carrie-Ann Wade:

additional support and people around me that build that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

network. So that would definitely be one of my

Carrie-Ann Wade:

leadership lessons is to build and invest in having people

Carrie-Ann Wade:

around, don't think you have to do it all alone, have people

Carrie-Ann Wade:

around you to support you. And that might be you know, it's

Carrie-Ann Wade:

been a mixture of things for me informal mentors, sort of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

coaches, some of those people probably don't even know that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that's the role they carry out for me. I recall saying to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

somebody before I absolutely consider you like really

Carrie-Ann Wade:

informal mentor. They said oh, I'm really flattered and a bit

Carrie-Ann Wade:

surprised because I don't think they'd realised that was kind of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the role that I'd put them in in terms of my sort of circle and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

my network really. But you know, some of it might be more

Carrie-Ann Wade:

formal. So taking on a formal coach or a formal mentor to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

support you. And I think often in your role as a leader, you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

become somebody who coaches and mentors other people because of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

your leadership role, but I think it's really important to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

reflect on and make that time to make sure you've got that in

Carrie-Ann Wade:

your, for you as well in terms of your own development. So and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

my learning has been don't be afraid to ask so I've been lucky

Carrie-Ann Wade:

enough to be in a position where I've been able to afford to pay

Carrie-Ann Wade:

for my own coach in the past few years in terms of my own

Carrie-Ann Wade:

development but actually I had an appraisal in my workplace and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

kind of put that in the mix to say you know, I have been

Carrie-Ann Wade:

investing in myself and my boss was like, oh, I don't know why

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you haven't said anything like we should be investing in that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

for you basically then had a conversation about whether or

Carrie-Ann Wade:

not my work could support some of my coaching and so I think

Carrie-Ann Wade:

there was some lessons as well about it's really important that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you focus and invest in your own professional development as a

Carrie-Ann Wade:

leader but equally your organisation probably needs to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

as well.

Lee Griffith:

And I feel really strongly about that whole thing

Lee Griffith:

around developing yourself. Because I think that if you

Lee Griffith:

don't you become irrelevant. And you you become out of touch and

Lee Griffith:

out of date. Just maintaining the status quo means you're

Lee Griffith:

heading backwards. So there's a lot of cliches. But there is and

Lee Griffith:

I think that people can feel guilty for investing time in

Lee Griffith:

themselves in their personal development or their

Lee Griffith:

professional development. And I've been fortunate I've been

Lee Griffith:

given that time and space in in my career. I've always

Lee Griffith:

encouraged that of my teams because I can see it's really

Lee Griffith:

important. But even now I still get people coming to me as one

Lee Griffith:

to one clients and they'll go oh, you know, I need to try and

Lee Griffith:

fit this in around work or I need to do it in my spare time.

Lee Griffith:

I'm like no, this is part of your work. If you're developing

Lee Griffith:

yourself, you're developing your skills, you're gonna give more

Lee Griffith:

back to the organisation and you shouldn't feel like you need to

Lee Griffith:

justify that if it's formal training or something, you know,

Lee Griffith:

if it was part of HR policy, you're given time to do that in

Lee Griffith:

the workplace. And that's the same should be for broader

Lee Griffith:

development. Sorry soapbox.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah. I think it's that permission thing,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

isn't it around, you know, giving yourself permission and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

us as leaders giving other people permission for that to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

just be part of how they operate in the workplace but you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

definitely touched on something happens a lot that people don't

Carrie-Ann Wade:

think they have permission to do that development during during

Carrie-Ann Wade:

work time that they have to do that all in their own time.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

That's not to say, don't do that if that's what floats your boat

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you want to do, but like you say, I think we should all

Carrie-Ann Wade:

actually be encouraging people to do that development. As part

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of their work in working hours.

Lee Griffith:

One of my biggest learnings, and then they're

Lee Griffith:

slightly inter related, so I'm gonna give you two learnings if

Lee Griffith:

that's alright.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Two for the price of one, I'm loving it.

Lee Griffith:

So my first one is this whole notion of you need to

Lee Griffith:

be tough to be a manager or to show authority there needs to be

Lee Griffith:

a toughness, and I crave to know I've shared if you've watched if

Lee Griffith:

you've ever watched the Insta lives, you've heard me share

Lee Griffith:

this story before but when I was coming up the ranks in

Lee Griffith:

management I can vividly remember meeting where I slammed

Lee Griffith:

my hand on the desk to make a point because I need to show us

Lee Griffith:

really angry at something that people have done. And God is the

Lee Griffith:

one and only time I've ever done it. It didn't feel...

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'm really glad you said that by the way.

Lee Griffith:

It was like I need, I felt like I needed to do

Lee Griffith:

something to show, to show my emotion and my feeling and show

Lee Griffith:

I was really tough on that matter. Because that's what

Lee Griffith:

other people in my organisation at the time would do to show

Lee Griffith:

that they were really serious. And it just felt, I think

Lee Griffith:

everyone looked at me going is she alright, what's going on. It

Lee Griffith:

was completely out of character. You know, I was like, oh my god,

Lee Griffith:

this is I've just become one. Again. It was one of those

Lee Griffith:

moments that started to shake me, going this isn't the kind of

Lee Griffith:

person I want to be and I realised that you don't have to

Lee Griffith:

be. We talk that elbows out to and alpha female. And you know,

Lee Griffith:

I lived that experience in my management career and you don't

Lee Griffith:

need to do that to succeed. You definitely don't want to do that

Lee Griffith:

if you're trying to connect with people and I think my second if

Lee Griffith:

I can bridge carefully into my like second part of learning,

Lee Griffith:

which is interrelated and where you and I perhaps have different

Lee Griffith:

experiences is that I'm an introvert by nature, and I'm not

Lee Griffith:

someone that likes to be all jazz hands about stuff. Not that

Lee Griffith:

I'm saying that every extrovert is jazz handing all over the

Lee Griffith:

place.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I am occasionally I have to confess.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But yeah, I do like the occasional jazz hand.

Lee Griffith:

It's got it's time and it's place you know. I know

Lee Griffith:

that I was told quite a lot about oh you need to be seen to

Lee Griffith:

be speaking up more in meetings and you need to be louder and

Lee Griffith:

blah, blah, blah. And it just felt you know, I just didn't

Lee Griffith:

want to be one of those people that spoke for the sake of

Lee Griffith:

speaking. I wanted my impact to come across but the people knew

Lee Griffith:

when I spoke, I had something really value to add. And I

Lee Griffith:

thought that was more impactful than just being seen speak on

Lee Griffith:

every topic in every meeting, but I still hear people going.

Lee Griffith:

I've told I'm too quiet or I need to speak up more in

Lee Griffith:

meetings and I'm like, no, there is a different way that you can

Lee Griffith:

make an impact.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Actually, like the point you make there is like

Carrie-Ann Wade:

it takes a bit of everything to make the world go round, doesn't

Carrie-Ann Wade:

it? So like for me, it's like you don't want to be in a room

Carrie-Ann Wade:

full of people who are always going to have the same exactly

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the same reaction or say and suggest exactly the same thing.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

You need that diversity and breadth of different experience,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

different skill sets to really deliver the best outcomes. I

Carrie-Ann Wade:

personally think so. You know, like it might it might sometimes

Carrie-Ann Wade:

take us a while to get to being comfortable and confident being

Carrie-Ann Wade:

who we are in a room as a leader but actually it is really

Carrie-Ann Wade:

important that we that we do operate in that way and with

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that integrity, and I think that that kind of takes me on to one

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of my learnings and I guess as a leader, you don't always end up

Carrie-Ann Wade:

with the responsibility of building and developing a team

Carrie-Ann Wade:

depending on kind of where you're at. But I think most of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the time is part of what you might need to do at some point

Carrie-Ann Wade:

in your leadership journey. And it is just that me. I think I've

Carrie-Ann Wade:

definitely learned through my career to build my teams based

Carrie-Ann Wade:

on values and trust. And behaviours, more than being

Carrie-Ann Wade:

based on kind of skill set, I think because for me, I feel

Carrie-Ann Wade:

like you can teach people the skills but you can't always

Carrie-Ann Wade:

teach people the attitude and on the behavioural stuff. And I've

Carrie-Ann Wade:

been very lucky that different points in my career, people have

Carrie-Ann Wade:

taken a chance on me and recruited me over others who may

Carrie-Ann Wade:

perhaps have had in my perception more experience or

Carrie-Ann Wade:

stronger skill set in a certain area. But obviously people have

Carrie-Ann Wade:

seen something in me that they feel like will bring something

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to the team and so I feel like it's my my job to kind of pay

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that forward now. And I should always be looking out for some

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of that untapped talent. And actually, you know, if you can

Carrie-Ann Wade:

build a team of people who trust each other then the good

Carrie-Ann Wade:

performance follows, and if you've got a team of people who

Carrie-Ann Wade:

have the right values and behave in ways that are respectful of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

each other. I don't know I feel like that sometimes can go a

Carrie-Ann Wade:

longer way and go I just want five people who all know how to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

do X, because actually I can I could teach three of these

Carrie-Ann Wade:

people how to do X if they've got the right kind of value set

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and behaviours, so I feel like that's potentially a whole other

Carrie-Ann Wade:

episode but I feel like I have learned a lot about building

Carrie-Ann Wade:

building teams based on how I've been recruited into teams but

Carrie-Ann Wade:

also based on my own experiences. And I have had

Carrie-Ann Wade:

those occasions where we've gone we really need a person who's

Carrie-Ann Wade:

brilliant, why in the team and sometimes gone for the person in

Carrie-Ann Wade:

a recruitment process that technically is the best at

Carrie-Ann Wade:

delivering those skills. And sometimes your gut feel is like,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

there's other stuff they're not demonstrating. I know we don't

Carrie-Ann Wade:

like to call them soft skills, but maybe some of that, you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

know, empathy or whatever you might want to be bringing into

Carrie-Ann Wade:

your team in terms of the culture, and actually that can

Carrie-Ann Wade:

sometimes make for a really difficult experience for the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

team and the individual.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, there's a there's almost like an equation.

Lee Griffith:

I wonder if someone might have actually written an equation

Lee Griffith:

about this. There is that thing isn't there of skills and

Lee Griffith:

expertise plus or divided by empathy and, and other other

Lee Griffith:

kind of values led and all those other things that you need? So I

Lee Griffith:

completely agree with you. And it really gets my goat when you

Lee Griffith:

go through recruitment processes, particularly I work

Lee Griffith:

mainly with very senior leaders. So when I see people who recruit

Lee Griffith:

based on expertise solely, and you see that they overlook some

Lee Griffith:

of those broader skills that they need at that level that

Lee Griffith:

really really irritates me. On the flip side I do think when

Lee Griffith:

you are recruiting you do need some kind of assurance that they

Lee Griffith:

have skills and experience and something Yes, you can teach

Lee Griffith:

them. But you can have really nice values led people who don't

Lee Griffith:

want to learn anything.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I just want to put a caveat on this

Carrie-Ann Wade:

conversation that I just don't recruit anybody old body that I

Carrie-Ann Wade:

think is really nice. Does that have to be a balance but I think

Carrie-Ann Wade:

what I'm trying to say is you might miss out on a really

Carrie-Ann Wade:

talented person that you develop into the role if you only went

Carrie-Ann Wade:

based on the skill set before anybody thinks Lee's trying to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

say that I just recruit any old body willy nilly into my team -

Carrie-Ann Wade:

yeah you seem nice, come on in!

Lee Griffith:

I was trying to subtly like take us there just

Lee Griffith:

in case - jazz hands.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah if you can do jazz hands you're in the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

team. I absolutely do have a slightly more rigorous thought

Carrie-Ann Wade:

processes behind my recruitment than that. But anyway, one thing

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I really wanted to say that I think it's really important to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

look to learn from other leaders. So you'll have leaders

Carrie-Ann Wade:

whose styles and approaches and how they operate really resonate

Carrie-Ann Wade:

with you and just don't be afraid to pluck the best bits

Carrie-Ann Wade:

out of what you've experienced yourself and what you see other

Carrie-Ann Wade:

leaders doing. So one thing that really sticks with me is just

Carrie-Ann Wade:

been around doing appraisals, and I used to have a manager who

Carrie-Ann Wade:

used to do your appraisal over a really nice lunch and you got to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

pick the venue and get treated to lunch and then you spend a

Carrie-Ann Wade:

couple of hours doing your appraisal and your objective

Carrie-Ann Wade:

setting just taking you out of the office environment felt like

Carrie-Ann Wade:

such a treat and a reward that that that stays with me.

Lee Griffith:

It wasn't one of those sandwiches though, where

Lee Griffith:

they'd like take you to a really nice venue. dump a whole load of

Lee Griffith:

stuff on you and then you get a cocktail at the end.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

A good bad good sandwich was upon a phase it

Carrie-Ann Wade:

genuinely felt like a nice reward for doing a good job for

Carrie-Ann Wade:

12 months. So I'm not sure what would happen then if you had

Carrie-Ann Wade:

somebody have done a really bad job. We're gonna have a rubbish

Carrie-Ann Wade:

appraisal. They just get the meeting room. Yeah, they get the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

meeting room down the corridor, but be as aware of the bad stuff

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I guess. Yeah, well, that doesn't work. Try not to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

replicate that in your leadership

Lee Griffith:

I've very much, you've looked at the positive in

Lee Griffith:

what you want to be in people and I've gone I definitely don't

Lee Griffith:

want to be like them. I've taken and made sure I've avoided those

Lee Griffith:

negative traits.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

We like to make sure that people have got few

Carrie-Ann Wade:

tips and takeaway so if you haven't wanted to listen to us

Carrie-Ann Wade:

for an entire episode you by now or need to just come to the end

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of the How To section so Lee some of your top tips and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

takeaways around your leadership lessons that might help people.

Lee Griffith:

So my takeaways would be I think getting tough

Lee Griffith:

in management doesn't mean banging your hand on a desk and

Lee Griffith:

whilst we're on the subject hands, you don't need to be all

Lee Griffith:

jazz hands to make an impact, Entering an organisation well

Lee Griffith:

makes all the difference. I'd also say just do a general

Lee Griffith:

reflection piece yourself. I think there's some key questions

Lee Griffith:

you could having listened to this episode, sk yourself about

Lee Griffith:

what have I learned in my leadership? Who do I look up to?

Lee Griffith:

Who do I want to make sure that I don't become like? Am I

Lee Griffith:

living true to my values? So that I think there's a

Lee Griffith:

reflective piece that people can take away from today as well.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Definitely, I don't disagree with anything

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you've said. And I guess the only the only additions I would

Carrie-Ann Wade:

make would just be thinking about if you can step into the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

role you want to be in rather than the one you are in early

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and find the opportunities and the support to do that and make

Carrie-Ann Wade:

sure you think about nurturing and building your network to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

support you as you go through your leadership journey.

Lee Griffith:

Love it.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thanks again for listening to today's

Carrie-Ann Wade:

episode.

Lee Griffith:

Don't forget to hit subscribe, so you're the

Lee Griffith:

first to receive new episodes when they drop every Thursday.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

If you enjoyed the show, we'd love it if you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

would rate it or leave a review.

Lee Griffith:

And let us know your thoughts and own

Lee Griffith:

experiences.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Get in touch with either of us on LinkedIn,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Twitter or Instagram.

Lee Griffith:

or use the hashtag how to take the lead.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Until next week, get out there and take the

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About the Podcast

How to Take the Lead
Unfiltered conversations for the modern leader
How to Take the Lead is a show exploring all things leadership.

Every week we'll be exploring a different part of life as a leader, questioning everything we've ever learnt and sharing a few of our own stories along the way.

If you want to learn how to do leadership your own way, join hosts Lee Griffith (from www.sundayskies.com) and Carrie-Ann Wade (from www.cats-pajamas.co.uk) as they debunk myths, tackle stereotypes and generally put the leadership world to rights.

New episodes are released every Thursday. To get involved, share your thoughts and stories or to ask questions visit www.howtotakethelead.com or DM us via instagram, LinkedIn or twitter.

About your hosts

Lee Griffith

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Lee Griffith is a leadership strategist and coach who works with CEOs and senior leaders to maximise their impact. A former award-winning communications and engagement director with over 20 years of experience, Lee has supported everything from major incidents to reconfigurations, turnarounds and transformations. She now runs her own company, sunday skies, and speaks regularly about how leaders can build connection and effect change through great communication and engagement. Find out more via www.sundayskies.com.

Carrie-Ann Wade

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Carrie-Ann Wade is a communications director in the NHS with over 20 years of communications and marketing experience. She is also founder of Cat’s Pajamas Communications which focuses on mentoring communications professionals to thrive and grow in their careers. She has been named one of F:entrepreneur's #ialso100 2020 top female entrepreneurs and business leaders, and Cat’s Pajamas has been recognised in Small Business Saturday's UK #SmallBiz100, as a business with impact.
Find out more via www.cats-pajamas.co.uk