Quiet quitting - a gen z phenomena?

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

the phenomenon.

Lee: 00:00:02

Phenomena.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:03

No, no, no, no.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:05

Anyway, oh, we are on the end of series high here, aren't we?

Lee: 00:00:08

And I haven't got gin

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:49

Hello and welcome to this our last episode in series

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:54

two of How to Take the Lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:56

I have got no idea how this has happened.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:59

I can see the lovely Lee in front of me on the screens taking a big gulp of

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:03

comforting tea, possibly burnt her tongue, which is not gonna be a good start to

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:08

our last episode if she can't speak.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:10

So Lee, how are you doing as we, as we mosey on into episode 10,

Lee: 00:01:16

Yes, immediately regretted my life choice of picking up my cup as you started

Lee: 00:01:20

to talk and then But I think I'll be fine.

Lee: 00:01:24

I think I'll be fine.

Lee: 00:01:25

If I start talking like this, you'll know that something's happened.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:30

Um, fabulous.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:31

So here we are, last episode of the series.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:35

Um, I know we're not here to talk about how we feel about that, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:38

how are you feeling about that, Lee?

Lee: 00:01:40

Well, how am I feeling?

Lee: 00:01:43

I haven't really processed it to be honest with you.

Lee: 00:01:45

We've been on this like little merry journey of the last few weeks, and

Lee: 00:01:50

I haven't quite come to terms with this is gonna be, I mean, it's

Lee: 00:01:54

never really quite the last episode cause we always have a little bonus

Lee: 00:01:56

one up, up our sleeves, don't we?

Lee: 00:01:58

But, um, this is like the proper, proper one.

Lee: 00:02:01

But I think, I think it's, yeah, I think we've had a good.

Lee: 00:02:05

Set of discussions, this series.

Lee: 00:02:07

So I'm pleased with that.

Lee: 00:02:09

Like feels super professional with our social media channels and all of that.

Lee: 00:02:15

And had some good discussions with people who've been listening.

Lee: 00:02:18

So I'm, I think we like ending the series and the year on a bit

Lee: 00:02:23

of a How to Take the Lead high.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:25

I am with you on the how to take the lead high.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:28

I, I'm just gonna come out there and say it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:30

I feel really proud of us and I don't feel like a fraud.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:33

Now when I say we are podcasters because I feel like we are,

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:36

cause people actually listen.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:38

They give us feedback.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:39

It's very exciting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:41

But we are actually here to have a leadership conversation as we always do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:45

And in our last episode, we are going to explore the, I'm

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:49

gonna call it a phenomenon.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:51

I nearly couldn't say the word, the phenomenon.

Lee: 00:02:55

Phenomena.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:56

No, no, no, no.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:57

Anyway, oh, we are on the end of series high here, aren't we?

Lee: 00:03:01

And I haven't got gin

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:02

She hasn't, she's, I promise you it was hot tea.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:05

I saw her burn her tongue on it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:06

But, we are here, uh, to talk about in this episode the phenomenon

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:10

that is, uh, quiet, quitting and how we feel about that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:14

And also the fact that that is appearing to be linked somewhat

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:19

to, is it Gen Z or is it Gen Z?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:22

You can tell I'm not in it, cuz I dunno which way you say it, but anyway.

Lee: 00:03:26

potato,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:27

Potato potato.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:28

Um, let's go with Gen Z.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:30

I don't feel like I'm a Gen Z kind of, uh, person.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:33

As I've said, we've heard quite a lot about, quiet quitting, I

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:37

would say more so more recently.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:39

But I do think it's something, that has been around for a while

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:42

in terms of, a kind of thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:44

So, the rise of quiet quitting and in particular with Gen Z, we've

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:48

heard lots of different people talk about it in the leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:51

Simon Sinek, Stephen Bartlett.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:53

In fact, in the first episode of this series, I think it

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:56

was you, Lee, that mentioned.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:58

Steven Bartlett sharing his views around, uh, gen Z and the fact that perhaps they

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:03

might be perceived to be rather lazy and not particularly resilient and, and very

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:07

much linked to that quiet quitting thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:10

We're reading lots of articles about it and everywhere from

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:13

Forbes to Stylist Magazine.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:15

So it is something that is, is being discussed a lot and I wanted us to

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:19

explore this and to share our views on, on what we think about quiet, quitting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:24

So I wanted to start with what we think we mean by this term quiet quitting, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:30

did a bit of the Google research as we like to do for our episodes Occasionally.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:35

And quiet quitting really is a term that's being used to describe

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:40

being in a job, but not really being there, if that makes sense.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:43

So maybe not doing that extra effort, not going above and beyond putting minimal

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:49

effort in both sort of physically and mentally, with some people even saying

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:53

that quiet quitters have checked out.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:55

So they're turning up, they're doing the do, but they've checked out,

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:58

they're, they're not really, uh, that interested, in what's going on in terms

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:02

of their job and their organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:04

So I just wanted to get your view on what we as leaders, or perhaps

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:10

even what we in society are really trying to describe when we bandy

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:15

around this term, quiet, quitting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:16

So what does quiet quitting mean to you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:18

What's your take on that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:19

I would say Lee

Lee: 00:05:21

Well, how long have we got Carrie-Ann?

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:24

we're about 30 minutes, so if you could keep it concise.

Lee: 00:05:28

So quiet quitting, I think sits in my little bucket of words I

Lee: 00:05:33

hate, along with imposter syndrome.

Lee: 00:05:36

It's another one of those buzzwords that I just don't like.

Lee: 00:05:41

I mean, I think if I look back over my career, I've definitely had times

Lee: 00:05:46

where I've gone, do you know what?

Lee: 00:05:49

. I'm not gonna kill myself for this job anymore.

Lee: 00:05:51

They don't care about me.

Lee: 00:05:53

You know, I'm a disposable commodity, all of that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:05:57

So it's been around for a long while.

Lee: 00:05:59

They've just put a, a name on it at the minute.

Lee: 00:06:01

I, I think that, you know, what is quite quitting or what,

Lee: 00:06:07

what are people talking about?

Lee: 00:06:08

I think as you've described, it's that sense of people physically shown up to

Lee: 00:06:13

work, but they've emotionally, mentally, Disengaged with work, and I get that.

Lee: 00:06:22

But I think as leaders, and this might sound a bit harsh,

Lee: 00:06:28

I think we expect too much.

Lee: 00:06:30

There's too many leaders who see meeting your contractual standards as

Lee: 00:06:36

not given enough, not being committed enough, and they create a culture of.

Lee: 00:06:43

Well, they create a culture of guilt.

Lee: 00:06:45

Um, if people aren't putting themselves forward, aren't working long hours,

Lee: 00:06:49

aren't always on the email or contactable any hour of the day, then they're

Lee: 00:06:55

labeled as not being committed enough.

Lee: 00:06:57

They're overlooked for opportunities they're discriminated against, and I

Lee: 00:07:01

just don't think that's on anymore.

Lee: 00:07:02

And I think, you know, if we actually look at the situation we're in

Lee: 00:07:06

nowadays, People have got a lot of stuff going on outside of the workplace.

Lee: 00:07:12

, yes.

Lee: 00:07:13

We've had the pandemic and that's obviously changed how connected people

Lee: 00:07:18

feel to where they work and how much they want to give to an organization.

Lee: 00:07:22

But for, for years, it's been the case of people having to juggle caring

Lee: 00:07:27

responsibilities, whether it's family, you know, children or, or other

Lee: 00:07:31

types of caring responsibilities.

Lee: 00:07:33

I think you've got the issue.

Lee: 00:07:35

Well, it's not an issue.

Lee: 00:07:35

I think you've got the, the, the facts that, um, people are developing maybe

Lee: 00:07:42

multiple portfolio careers so that their investment isn't just in one organization.

Lee: 00:07:49

So I think as leaders, we are being really shortsighted and old-fashioned

Lee: 00:07:54

if we think that our staff need to give over and above what we're

Lee: 00:07:58

contractually paying them to give.

Lee: 00:08:01

I think that there's an apathy as well around change.

Lee: 00:08:06

And I know people who are tired of the same people getting the same top jobs.

Lee: 00:08:14

The politics that are at play in the kind of leadership cardre in, in organizations

Lee: 00:08:19

that, you know, they're just not gonna consider applying for maybe a more

Lee: 00:08:24

senior job or, or going the extra mile because of the stuff that's playing out.

Lee: 00:08:29

And I think as leaders, we've got a responsibility to fix it, not moan about.

Lee: 00:08:33

Sorry,

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:35

Oh my God.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:35

It's been a while since I've said this in an episode of How to Take the Lead,

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:39

but that was a proper soapbox moment.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:42

I love it and I love it when it happens as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:44

I love when the passion comes out.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:47

I think from what you are saying, Lee, and for me, my, my own, uh, kind of

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:51

take on it is that actually this is all about people setting and actively

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:56

maintaining some boundaries in the

Lee: 00:08:58

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:59

and it's something you'll hear me talk about a

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:02

lot, uh, in terms of boundaries.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:03

It's something that I'm passionate about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:05

I'm gonna try not to get on my soapbox too much about, cuz both of

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:08

us on those soap boxes could make this for a, an extra long episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:13

But, but I do talk a lot about boundaries and, and I see boundaries

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:17

as a really positive thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:18

Setting boundaries in the workplace and elsewhere in life is a good thing,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:23

and trying to actively seek to maintain those boundaries is a good thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:27

Yet this term quiet quitting seems to have really negative connotations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:32

So what's your take on that?

Lee: 00:09:33

completely agree.

Lee: 00:09:34

And I think we touched on this in, in episode one about the fact that actually

Lee: 00:09:40

the discussion is more around the, the boundaries that people are setting.

Lee: 00:09:44

I'm completely with you on the importance of it, and it's something

Lee: 00:09:47

that I work with, with my clients on as part of their self-management and

Lee: 00:09:52

the impact that they make as leaders.

Lee: 00:09:53

I think setting boundaries, and the standards that you are willing

Lee: 00:09:57

to accept, uh, is really important.

Lee: 00:10:00

I think when it comes specifically to quiet quitting, I think when

Lee: 00:10:07

you look at it from a boundary setting point of view, it's.

Lee: 00:10:11

It's healthy or not.

Lee: 00:10:13

So for me, the difference is how engaged the staff are.

Lee: 00:10:19

So are they still getting involved with you and your

Lee: 00:10:22

organization, but with boundaries?

Lee: 00:10:26

or do they really not care?

Lee: 00:10:29

And I think as a leader, you know, as leaders or in leadership roles,

Lee: 00:10:34

that's what we need to tap into and try and distinguish, are our staff,

Lee: 00:10:38

our people who work for us, just being more boundaried, and setting

Lee: 00:10:43

and sticking to those boundaries.

Lee: 00:10:46

Or have they stopped caring and I think there's a big difference.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:51

and I, I think that leads me on to something that I was gonna touch

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:54

on a bit later in the conversation, but I am gonna bring it in now because I

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:57

think you've, ta you've taken us there in, in what you've said, Lee, that,

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:00

that there's a bit for me around as a leader, uh, how should we be responding

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:05

if we are seeing members of our team, people in our organization, Almost as

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:09

you say, consciously deciding to quiet quit to disengage and, and really is that

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:15

masking other issues within your team or organization that you need to address

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:20

rather than this, trying to address this are they quiet quitting or not?

Lee: 00:11:24

There's a couple of things at play.

Lee: 00:11:26

I think there's something around leaders needing to be,

Lee: 00:11:30

to check in with their teams.

Lee: 00:11:31

Cause I, I think that a big part of this perception of quiet quitting is

Lee: 00:11:37

actually people maybe feeling burnout or an exhaustion so that they're not

Lee: 00:11:43

wanting to kind of give, give more or this perception of giving more.

Lee: 00:11:47

So I think there's something for me around how do leaders make sure they're checking

Lee: 00:11:52

in and responding to that element of it.

Lee: 00:11:55

I think that there was some research that Gallup did that said only one in three

Lee: 00:12:05

managers were engaged in the workplace.

Lee: 00:12:08

So I do think that's something that needs to be tackled.

Lee: 00:12:11

We, we often see or talk about this, this concept of a soggy

Lee: 00:12:14

middle and in the organization.

Lee: 00:12:16

What is actually being done to improve it?

Lee: 00:12:19

And if we engage our managers more, are we using that as an

Lee: 00:12:24

opportunity to engage their teams?

Lee: 00:12:27

So I think that's something that, that needs to be looked at and can be done

Lee: 00:12:31

to support the broader concept of staff feeling like they want to quiet quit.

Lee: 00:12:37

And I think the other thing that I'm seeing as a pattern is this fear,

Lee: 00:12:44

I suppose, that leaders have around wanting to or worried about giving

Lee: 00:12:51

feedback that might potentially disengage people further at work and add to this

Lee: 00:13:00

sense that people are checking out.

Lee: 00:13:02

So they're getting worried about appraisals and end of year review.

Lee: 00:13:05

So everyone's treading on eggshells a little bit because they think they've

Lee: 00:13:09

got, they, you know, if they see they've got a disengaged workforce.

Lee: 00:13:13

So I think there's something for me about leaders getting better at

Lee: 00:13:17

having those difficult conversations.

Lee: 00:13:19

And we've spoken before in this series about accountability and

Lee: 00:13:24

demonstrating that you are taking action and holding people to account

Lee: 00:13:28

to deliver what they're doing.

Lee: 00:13:30

And I think potentially what we're seeing as a trend with, with this quiet quitting

Lee: 00:13:35

is, is people starting to retreat because they don't want to perpetuate the issue.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:40

And I think probably what the conclusion that we're coming to

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:43

around that part of the conversation is that actually quiet quitting is just the

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:47

terminology I think we are using for, um, colleagues, employees, whatever we

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:51

want to to call that group of people who are disengaged from the organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:56

And actually what the important thing for leaders to do is to understand,

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:00

why that that disengagement is happening and to really try to get to the bottom

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:05

of that rather than being over focused on this sort of term quiet quitters

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:09

and, and potentially going, oh, well that's a thing that's happening right

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:12

now, so, I don't need to worry about it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:15

I think that would be probably be one of my anxieties, a as a leader myself, is

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:20

that we've got other leaders going, oh, well that is the phenomenon to quiet quit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:23

We just have to accept that that's what certain people are gonna do and

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:27

not deal with the underlying issues of why colleagues are disengaged

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:31

from what you're trying to achieve in your team or organisation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:29

So, we touched at the start of this conversation around the

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:32

Gen Z, gen Z, uh, workforce.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:34

And I think recent conversations about quiet quitting have

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:39

definitely been more associated with that generation of workforce.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:43

Um, but I guess I want to explore whether or not that's a fair portrayal, I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:50

they're being portrayed as a generation of workers who don't want to put the effort

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:54

in, who are lazy, um, who, uh, don't, like you say, don't necessarily want to

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:00

show up and, and put the hard graft in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:03

But I think as we've started to talk about what we are really

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:06

seeing are people perhaps.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:08

Be more articulate and overt about the boundaries that they're putting in place.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:14

I think my perception would be that some of that started

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:17

happening even pre pandemic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:19

And I know you touched on the pandemic, giving people an

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:22

opportunity to reframe their relationship with work and employment.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:26

Um, But I think I, I've been seeing employees with lots of years experience

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:32

leaving roles, and particularly in healthcare, which is the industry

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:35

I work in as part of my day job.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:38

People leaving that because of the experiences they've had because of

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:41

that burnout that you've talked about because of looking for those portfolio

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:45

career opportunities, particularly I've seen linked with, um, the fact that

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:50

retirement age is creeping ever higher.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:52

And I think people are, people are thinking, I've got to work for longer.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:55

Do, do I want this to be the only thing that I do?

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:58

And.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:00

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:00

Uh, well, yes, I'd be interested to hear your, your personal

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:03

take on that for sure Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:04

And I think we also heard, in the episode we did around women leaders about the

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:09

McKinsey and lean in data around women wanting to leave the workplace they're

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:14

currently in because they want to find increased flexibility in job satisfaction.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:19

So I, I guess my question is, are we unfairly portraying quiet

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:24

quitting as a Gen Z, gen Z thing, or, or does it go beyond that?

Lee: 00:17:28

Undoubtedly it does go beyond that.

Lee: 00:17:31

I think there is evidence, and again, this Gallup poll that, that came out

Lee: 00:17:36

a few months ago, showed that employee engagement for under 35s was falling.

Lee: 00:17:45

So there is obviously something about how engaged workforces of, of

Lee: 00:17:51

a younger generation feel with the organization they're working for.

Lee: 00:17:54

And that does link to that sense of how connected do they feel with

Lee: 00:17:58

purpose, which is really important to a younger generation and organizations

Lee: 00:18:04

aren't always great at joining the dots for people around how they

Lee: 00:18:08

can connect to the bigger purpose.

Lee: 00:18:10

Um, so I do think that there is undoubtedly different expectations of

Lee: 00:18:16

different generations, and we've talked about that for, for many different

Lee: 00:18:19

things, not just around this sense of quiet quitting, but it goes beyond

Lee: 00:18:23

it for sure, because, you know, my personal experience I've had those

Lee: 00:18:28

moments where I've mentally checked out and it's because something else is

Lee: 00:18:34

more important to me at that time than going above and beyond in the workplace.

Lee: 00:18:38

Or you do it from a point of needing to protect yourself because of where you

Lee: 00:18:43

are working isn't helping you, might be mentally impacting you in some way.

Lee: 00:18:50

It might be toxic, there it all sorts of triggers and you need

Lee: 00:18:54

to protect yourself from that.

Lee: 00:18:57

So I think that was ever, thus, I don't think that's a new phenomena.

Lee: 00:19:02

and I definitely had that point where there were certain things that I

Lee: 00:19:08

was just not wanting to get involved in because I didn't see the value.

Lee: 00:19:16

I didn't think it was fulfilling the bigger picture stuff that

Lee: 00:19:21

we, we were supposed to be doing.

Lee: 00:19:23

I didn't like the attitudes or the politics associated with it.

Lee: 00:19:27

All of those things were true for me in my career.

Lee: 00:19:30

I hated the repetitiveness of some of it.

Lee: 00:19:32

It just wasn't floating my boat.

Lee: 00:19:35

, you know, I definitely have checked out at at points and that doesn't mean

Lee: 00:19:39

that I've not performed and that I've not delivered and any of that kind of

Lee: 00:19:44

stuff, but, I've got to that point where I go, I'm not gonna kill myself for this

Lee: 00:19:48

place, because they forget about you.

Lee: 00:19:52

You know, we've seen, we've seen how forgettable we all are,

Lee: 00:19:55

and I hate, you know, this is a really horrid thing to say maybe.

Lee: 00:19:58

But we've all, we all think we are indispensable and then we leave

Lee: 00:20:03

and we're forgotten really quickly.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:06

We are all replaceable, aren't we?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:07

And I think that's a, a good point that you make and I know you've shared

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:11

your personal experience, um, with us a few times from different perspective.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:15

But I think that point you made about yes, you may have checked out and yes, you may

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:20

have been taking decisions that that's not right for you and you want to move

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:23

on and do something different, but that doesn't mean that you stopped performing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:27

I think that's, that's quite an interesting point

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:30

that you've raised there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:31

Um, because I think that does link to that sense and that negative

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:35

connotation that if people have checked out, then they're not delivering.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:39

And I think there are different levels aren't there of, of being checked in

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:42

or checked out in your organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:45

And, and the point you made, um, earlier on in the conversation about how, how far

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:49

somebody's checked out is, is probably the bit that you need to explore and

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:53

potentially take action on, as a leader in terms of trying to get the best for

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:58

that person and, and the wider team.

Lee: 00:21:00

Yeah

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:01

and I, I think there were a few bits that kind of resonated

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:04

with me when you were talking Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:06

There was a bit for me around, as we were talking earlier, you, I could see

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:10

you nodding your head around the point about we're all having to work for

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:13

longer, so we want to do things that, that bring us some level of joy and things

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:17

that we want to get involved in and feel like gives us that sense of purpose.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:21

And I've definitely had that experience where I run my own business and I work

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:27

in a salaried role in an organization, and they're of, they've often felt like

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:31

there's been some tensions around that in terms of how that's been perceived.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:35

And the fact that I've chosen to run my own business has sometimes been

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:39

perceived as me not being committed to the organization that I work for.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:44

And, and actually I would really challenge that because I decided to set

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:47

up my own business at a point where I was on the cusp of checking out of the

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:52

organization I worked in for various different reasons, and starting a

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:56

business was an opportunity for me to explore where there were other options.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:00

The surprising thing that's happened for me is actually a, along with some other

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:05

bits, so it can't take the full credit for it, but actually having that time

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:09

and space and making that, that space for me to run my own business has actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:14

made me more productive in my day job.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:17

because I feel like I'm getting a sense of purpose that I perhaps wasn't always

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:21

getting in my day job through my business, which is great, but also I feel more

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:26

committed to wanting to demonstrate to my organization that I can deliver my

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:30

day job and run my business as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:32

So for me, it, it, it acted in a really positive way despite potentially being

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:37

perceived a bit negatively in the first.

Lee: 00:22:40

And I know from knowing you and your work set up, but you work compressed

Lee: 00:22:47

hours, but you work way above and beyond your hours still because there's a

Lee: 00:22:51

sense of feeling like you need to be showing that you are always showing up.

Lee: 00:22:55

So yeah, it's interesting, how people perceive.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:58

Yeah, and I think there's something though, back to the point

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:01

about boundaries, about having to balance that desire to want to prove

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:06

that you can do your day job and run a business with putting boundaries

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:10

in place to enable you to do both, but also to protect your wellbeing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:14

So, so I definitely think boundaries are a big part of that, feeling

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:19

engaged, but also feeling in control.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:22

So for me, there's something about control as an aspect of this, this quiet,

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:26

quitting terminology we are using that people want to, to have more control

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:30

over different parts of their life.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:32

I think through this conversation, we've reached a point where we're

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:35

both in agreement that that boundary setting is important, um, uh, and it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:40

a good thing to do in the workplace.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:42

And perhaps some of the misconception about quiet quitters is, not quite

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:46

right cuz maybe they're people who are setting and maintaining those boundaries.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:51

That's gonna lead me onto a question for you, Lee, which is, as a leader, how do

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:55

you demonstrate and create a culture that views boundary setting in a positive way?

Lee: 00:24:01

I think you've got to demonstrate that you are setting and sticking to

Lee: 00:24:05

your own boundaries, because if you are not showing that you care as a

Lee: 00:24:10

leader, why should your teams bother to show up and follow suit really.

Lee: 00:24:16

You are setting the example.

Lee: 00:24:18

So I think for me it's about, as a leader, you need to get in touch with

Lee: 00:24:25

what your red lines are, how you want to work, what's acceptable, what's not

Lee: 00:24:30

acceptable, taking care of yourself.

Lee: 00:24:33

All of that stuff for me, sits, sits in under the realms of boundary setting.

Lee: 00:24:39

How you articulate that and show that to people, how you stick to

Lee: 00:24:44

that and respect your boundaries.

Lee: 00:24:46

But also how do you demonstrate that you are respecting the

Lee: 00:24:49

boundaries that other people set?

Lee: 00:24:51

Because often we look at ourselves and we don't look at or respect other people, and

Lee: 00:24:57

it, and it's a two-way street, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:00

That's a really important point about how you respect other people's

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:03

boundaries and accept that people are, are wanting to set and maintain those.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:07

I think that is really, really important piece of advice for leaders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:12

I'm conscious of how long we've been going in this episode and it feels like

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:16

you're moving us there naturally in terms of advice and top takeaways, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:20

We've kind of tried to explore what we think quiet quitting is.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:23

I think it would be safe to say we don't think it's a new thing, it's just the

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:26

latest term, um, that we're putting on perhaps groups of, of people who are

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:31

feeling disengaged, in the workplace.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:34

or who are being really proactive about setting their boundaries.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:38

And I think there feels like there's possibly two camps there of, of different

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:42

sorts of people, who might be perceived to be quiet quitting in the workplace.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:46

We've had quite a robust discussion a, around the

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:49

boundary setting aspects of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:51

But I guess where I'd like to take us in terms of ending on some takeaways

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:55

for people is, is what advice would you give to leaders listening who want

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:01

to support their colleagues, perhaps to have a healthier relationship and

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:05

more positive experience with work, given that it feels like some quiet

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:10

quitters, if that's what we want to call them, are, are not experiencing

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:14

that healthy, positive relationship.

Lee: 00:26:18

I think it goes back to how are you engaging them and how

Lee: 00:26:22

are you engaging them around the purpose of what it is that you do.

Lee: 00:26:26

I think it's a simple, and I say, That loosely cause I know it isn't simple

Lee: 00:26:30

, but I do think it's as simple as that.

Lee: 00:26:32

I think that's where you need to be showing up and inspiring as a leader.

Lee: 00:26:37

I think if there is a disconnect between the promise and the experience,

Lee: 00:26:43

that's where you have the problem.

Lee: 00:26:44

And we've touched on that with culture.

Lee: 00:26:46

We've touched on it with a, with accountability and several of these

Lee: 00:26:50

episodes where we've talked about it.

Lee: 00:26:52

So yeah, engagement around a purpose.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:56

I absolutely think that's brilliant advice, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:59

And I guess I would just add that, um, I don't think we should make

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:02

assumptions about the types of people, the demographics of people in, in our

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:08

organizations who might be perceived to be quiet quitting, because I don't

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:11

think it's a Gen Z, gen Z issue.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:14

I think there are more people who are disengaging for various different reasons.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:18

The point about trying to understand that is, Is a really

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:21

important one as a leader for sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:23

And then back to that kind of demonstrating that you can set and

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:27

respect boundaries, both for yourself and and for other people, would

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:31

definitely be my advice around creating a bit more of a healthy relationship

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:36

for people in your workplace.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:37

I'm sure we could go on for longer with this conversation as we could have done

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:41

with every conversation we've had, but we do have to draw this series to a close the

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:47

last formal proper episode of this series as Lee said at the start, we usually have

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:52

a cheeky little something up our sleeves, don't we, just in case people miss us.

Lee: 00:27:57

Yes.

Lee: 00:27:57

Or even just that we can talk to each other really even

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:01

Yeah, for some reason now we seem to need to

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:03

have our, all our conversations recorded, which is very strange.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:07

We can talk to each other outside of the podcast, but I love the conversations

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:11

that we have as part of the podcast.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:13

So,

Lee: 00:28:13

Is that why you've started sending me voice notes now?

Lee: 00:28:16

Cuz you just like to do everything via recording

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:21

Today in particular, has been a voice note kind of day.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:24

I've not had the time to, to type it out.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:26

It's easier to do the voice notes, but I realize that I'm coming at that

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:30

probably quite far behind everyone else who's been using voice notes forever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:34

So you know, me finger on the pulse and all that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:37

On that note, I will draw this episode to a close um, Uh, say thank you to

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:42

everyone who's listened to this one and any of the other episodes in this series.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:47

There will be more to come.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:48

This isn't the last that you've heard from us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:50

There's more series afoot and we would definitely love to hear from you if

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:54

you've got suggestions and ideas about topics you would like us to cover.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:58

So a huge thank you and until the next series or the

Lee: 00:29:03

Yeah, seasons, greetings, festive wishes, and all of that as well.