Should I stay or should I go?

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

anyway, we're, we're not doing a podcast series on reviewing

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:03

TV shows, by the way, for anyone who might have only just started

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:06

listening at this point in the episode,

Lee: 00:00:08

I think it might be my side hustle though.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:50

Hello and welcome to this episode of How to Take the Lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:55

Uh, it's episode eight already, which I can't quite believe, I dunno

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:58

where this series is flying by to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:01

But I am of course, joined by my partner in crime or partner in collaboration

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:06

depending what day of the week it is and what mischief we are getting up to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:10

So welcome Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:11

How are you?.

Lee: 00:01:12

I'm, well, actually, yes, I've just gone and had a bit of

Lee: 00:01:16

self care, got my nails done.

Lee: 00:01:18

I knew I was working a bit later today to do the recording, so I thought

Lee: 00:01:22

actually, you know, I'm gonna take care of myself rather than just work

Lee: 00:01:25

through and make it an extra long day.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:28

Very nice.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:29

I'm loving you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:29

Prioritizing self-care, which is something we talk a lot about in

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:33

terms of leaders needing to do that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:35

So some good role modeling, but I'm glad you were back

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:38

in time to do this recording,

Lee: 00:01:40

And how are you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:41

I'm alright.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:42

Thank you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:43

I'm in a slight frantic frenzy, um, because I'm about to go on annual

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:47

leave in a few days time and I've got that horrible, you know, trying,

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:51

you're trying to do all of this week's work, all of the week's work while

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:54

you're off, kind of working out what you're gonna do for every eventuality.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:58

And then you take a breath and you go, do you know what?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:00

Last time I went on leave, everybody coped fine without me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:03

So why am I in such a panic

Lee: 00:02:05

Yeah, but you, but you hit that stage before you go away where you just think,

Lee: 00:02:10

why have I even bothered to book leave?

Lee: 00:02:11

Like I just might as well just keep working.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:13

Yeah, just be easier if I wasn't going on holiday, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:16

I know when I'm on holiday with a good book, I'll be fine and I'm, I'm

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:20

gonna do some self care when I'm on holiday, I'm having a digital detox.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:24

I'm not gonna be on my socials, I'm not gonna be checking my emails, not gonna

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:27

do any work cuz I feel like hopefully not quite until after we finished

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:32

recording this episode that my, my brain is feeling frazzled and I'm ready for,

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:36

I really, the first time in a long time, I feel really ready for a proper break.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:39

So I am looking forward to it.

Lee: 00:02:41

Oh, well I hope you have a good one when you get there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:44

when I get there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:45

Yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:45

We've got more important things to talk about than my holiday plans though.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:49

And in this episode, we were going to explore, well, we are going to not, we

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:54

were, we are going to explore that point at which in your leadership, um, Journey,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:00

and this happens probably more than once, where you have that thought process

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:04

about should you stay or should you go.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:07

And I want, I wanna say it in a tune because I think it's a song,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:10

but I don't actually know what song it is that it's reminding me

Lee: 00:03:13

the clash song, isn't it?

Lee: 00:03:14

I, I would attempt to sing, but if anyone that heard series one

Lee: 00:03:18

knows that, that isn't a good idea,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:20

You don't want that as the opener to an episode, but I thank,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:23

at least now I know it's the clash.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:25

Should I stay or should I go?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:26

So, that's what we're going to explore, in this episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:30

And, I think we've probably all been in situations as a leader when we

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:35

do start to have that conversation with ourselves at the very least

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:39

about, is it time for me to move on?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:42

Am I ready to go?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:43

If something happened that might be signaling to me, uh, strongly or

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:47

otherwise that it's time to move on?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:49

Then on reflection, I guess maybe not if you're currently in your first

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:52

leadership role, maybe you've not quite got into that head space yet.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:55

But I think it's something that, that we consider throughout our leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:00

career and does happen to us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:01

So before we get into the nitty gritty of offering some words of

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:06

wisdom and hopefully some advice and some of our thoughts around that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:10

I just wanted to explore some of our own experiences in this space around

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:15

making those decisions about moving on and, and when it might be time to go.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:19

And if you'll indulge me just for a moment there, I was gonna share a couple of mine.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:24

Um, because for me there have been a few different occasions when, when this has

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:28

been something I've had to consider as a leader and, and sometimes and in, in

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:33

more positive lights it's been a very proactive kind of question that I've asked

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:37

myself and, and explored, with others, which is about that time when you move on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:42

For me, it's when I feel like there's nothing left perhaps for me to learn.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:46

Nothing perhaps left that I feel like I can really achieve and have an

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:49

impact on in that role or organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:52

And when I feel like it's time for me to push myself personally, so

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:56

that's definitely been an experience I've had in my career when making

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:00

a choice to move on from a role.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:02

But I have also had that experience when it was clear with the change

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:06

in organizational leadership that my face didn't perhaps fit anymore.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:11

And maybe I wasn't really aligned to that new leadership way of thinking or

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:16

way of working, and probably, if I'm really honest, have decided to move

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:20

on, on that particular occasion before I got the sense that I would probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:24

be pushed a little bit or, or nudged to move on and make that decision.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:28

So I've definitely had that experience as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:32

And more recently an experience for me when I felt like it was time for me to

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:37

go, I felt like I'd achieved as much as I could in, in my organization, in

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:41

my leadership role, and I felt ready for a new challenge, but actually then

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:45

got a new leader into the organization, which gave me a bit of a new lease of

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:50

life, a different sense of direction in terms of where I was heading

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:54

as a leader in that organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:56

So that actually made a decision for me that I wanted to stay.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:00

So for me, I've sort of had three experiences that have all been a bit

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:03

different from each other in that space when considering that question.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:07

So, I'd like to pose that question back to you, Lee, and just see if you'd be

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:11

happy to share what sort of situations you might have found yourself in when you've

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:16

been pondering the conundrum about should you stay or should you go as a leader?

Lee: 00:06:20

mean a lot of what you've said has resonated with my own

Lee: 00:06:24

experiences in my corporate life.

Lee: 00:06:27

I've been in situations where absolutely felt like Groundhog Day

Lee: 00:06:31

and I'd do harm to someone if I had to run another campaign for

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:37

I thought you were gonna say I had to write another annual report,

Lee: 00:06:41

Well, yeah.

Lee: 00:06:41

You know, board paper, PowerPoint, presentation, you know, you name it.

Lee: 00:06:46

But I got to that point where everything was like, oh, I can't do,

Lee: 00:06:49

I don't think I can do this again.

Lee: 00:06:50

I can't do this again.

Lee: 00:06:52

I've been in situations where I've worked in pretty toxic environments and had

Lee: 00:06:58

that sense of, I just need to get out of here, I can't, I can't stay any longer.

Lee: 00:07:05

It wasn't to the extent that I felt I was being pushed out, but I definitely

Lee: 00:07:10

wasn't being felt made, well, made to felt, feel, I can't even say it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:16

You weren't being made to feel welcome.

Lee: 00:07:18

I wasn't being made to feel welcome and it just was

Lee: 00:07:23

not a nice place to be at all.

Lee: 00:07:25

So I was having what can I do, where can I go type discussions with myself?

Lee: 00:07:31

But actually they went before I went and the situation changed

Lee: 00:07:35

and I got a new lease of life and it, it felt a lot better.

Lee: 00:07:38

And then I've had opportunities come up when I've not been looking for them

Lee: 00:07:44

and do you want to give this a go?

Lee: 00:07:47

And I've gone, oh yeah, okay, that would be interesting.

Lee: 00:07:50

And then obviously my, my biggest, should I stay or should I go, is when I walked

Lee: 00:07:54

out of my corporate role, which I had got to the point where I, and we'll

Lee: 00:08:01

probably explore some of this maybe later in, in the episode about the different

Lee: 00:08:06

decisions, but for me, there was no, I'm apply for another job and hang around.

Lee: 00:08:12

I was like, I'm going and I'm getting out of here now.

Lee: 00:08:15

And that was, It was a quick decision and a quick execution after, um, a moment

Lee: 00:08:23

of opportunity of clarity, I suppose.

Lee: 00:08:25

So, and that was a decision I made purely on me wanting to get my life

Lee: 00:08:31

back, . Um, so yeah, I've had, I've had a bit of it all really throughout my,

Lee: 00:08:35

you know, it's 20 years of corporate life, but I'm still relatively young

Lee: 00:08:40

to, when you think about all the things you have gone through in your career..

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:44

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:45

And I know you've shared before around your decision to quit

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:48

corporate leadership life as it were.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:50

And, and you say it now quite casually, like, oh, it was a really quick decision.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:54

And I do know from our conversations that actually it was executed quite

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:58

quickly, which I think was, was a good thing for you because it's almost like,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:01

like once you've made the decision, you sort of want it to happen, don't you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:05

But I guess.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:06

You said that with a level of just being quite blase about it, that probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:11

doesn't do justice to what you had to think about when you were making that

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:14

decision for your, or maybe it does.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:16

I don't know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:17

So I just, just a thought that triggered for me, whil whilst you

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:20

were talking about how casually you say it now, but I, I wonder if it

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:24

felt like that at the time for you.

Lee: 00:09:26

it was probably two years in the making and I moved to another

Lee: 00:09:31

job in a different organization, um, thinking that that was the

Lee: 00:09:36

thing that was the change I needed.

Lee: 00:09:38

And actually, I don't regret making that change but what it did was shine

Lee: 00:09:43

a light on that I needed to make a bigger change than the one I did.

Lee: 00:09:46

So yeah, it, it once, once I had that realization that it actually, it's not

Lee: 00:09:51

about just going to an a another place.

Lee: 00:09:55

I needed to do something radically different than it was

Lee: 00:09:57

quite quick, but it probably.

Lee: 00:09:59

You're right.

Lee: 00:09:59

It probably took a couple of years of trying different things

Lee: 00:10:03

to explore whether I stay or go.

Lee: 00:10:05

And for me it was do I stay in this organization?

Lee: 00:10:08

Do I stay in my profession and my industry?

Lee: 00:10:11

Do I stay in this sector?

Lee: 00:10:12

So there was lots of questions I asked myself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:14

Yeah, and I think we'll probably touch on some more of

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:17

your experiences we worked through the conversation in this episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:20

I was just gonna try and structure the conversation a little bit around those

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:24

different types of decisions that you make around should you stay or should you go?

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:28

Because as we've touched on, there's a spectrum isn't there, of like you

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:31

making the decision for yourself for different reasons and potentially,

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:35

other people, maybe helping or forcing that decision upon you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:39

So I wanted to start in the space where actually, you know, it's, it's more of a

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:44

positive conversation that you're wanting to have with yourself and others, and a

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:47

situation where you are looking to leave because you want that new challenge.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:51

You are ready for something new, in terms of your leadership career.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:55

So what sort of advice would you give to leaders listening who, who maybe

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:59

are in that head space right now?

Lee: 00:11:01

I'm trying to think of the right word to use, but I think there's, there

Lee: 00:11:05

can be lots of feelings and emotions that you go through as an individual

Lee: 00:11:09

when you are thinking about, should I go and, and you've touched on some

Lee: 00:11:14

of the emotions that you've had.

Lee: 00:11:15

Similarly with me.

Lee: 00:11:17

It could be that Groundhog Day.

Lee: 00:11:19

It could be you want to do something different, but you don't feel you've

Lee: 00:11:22

got that opportunity where you are

Lee: 00:11:24

. It might be you're just really tired and

Lee: 00:11:31

are facing in, in your organization, or you might get a sense of excitement when

Lee: 00:11:36

you're looking outside other things or opportunities that other people have got

Lee: 00:11:41

elsewhere and you go, I want that for me.

Lee: 00:11:44

Or you know, there could be huge practical reasons why you think I need

Lee: 00:11:47

to go money, location, flexibility and all of that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:11:52

And I think the first really important thing that I've learned is that sense

Lee: 00:11:56

of being able to process what you are actually thinking and feeling.

Lee: 00:12:00

If you think, is this something that's gonna pass?

Lee: 00:12:04

So getting that clarity, because I think, I've lived that experience.

Lee: 00:12:07

Sometimes you, you jump out the fire into the, no, out of

Lee: 00:12:10

the frying pan into the fire.

Lee: 00:12:12

I got it right?

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:14

I really wanted to do a little cheer then whoop, whoop, she got one.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:17

Right?

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:18

I should be keeping a tally of your Leeisms when you get them right versus

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:22

when they're, when they're a lovely muddle that actually, uh, usually sound better.

Lee: 00:12:26

Yes.

Lee: 00:12:27

So, you know, sometimes the grass isn't always greener

Lee: 00:12:31

than, than where you are at.

Lee: 00:12:33

And you need to maybe process some of your feelings around what would

Lee: 00:12:39

need to change for me to be happy and stay where I am, for example.

Lee: 00:12:45

And then to, once you've answered that, is that realistic?

Lee: 00:12:49

Is that achievable?

Lee: 00:12:51

And if the answers to those are, are positive, then maybe it

Lee: 00:12:54

isn't a go move that you want.

Lee: 00:12:56

If the answers are are less positive or you don't think the changes can happen

Lee: 00:13:03

where you are at, then it's a different type of discussion you need to have

Lee: 00:13:08

around what would different look like.

Lee: 00:13:10

And I do an exercise with my clients is called the career priorities wheel, and

Lee: 00:13:18

they pick out six to eight things that are really important to them in their career.

Lee: 00:13:26

And, we do a bit of an assessment around, right, well, where would

Lee: 00:13:29

you rate that in your current job versus where would you want it to be?

Lee: 00:13:35

And you start to tease out what's really important to you.

Lee: 00:13:39

What's important to you in terms of your growth, where the gaps are and

Lee: 00:13:42

how that's been fulfilled in your current role and really get you laser

Lee: 00:13:47

focused on what that next step might be.

Lee: 00:13:49

I did that myself when I was looking at what I was gonna do in, in my career,

Lee: 00:13:53

and I know it's given huge clarity to people that I've worked with as well.

Lee: 00:13:58

So it can feel a bit procedural and and processy, but actually there's some

Lee: 00:14:08

fundamental questions you need to ask yourself rather than just going will

Lee: 00:14:13

want a new job because actually you could just be in the same situation

Lee: 00:14:17

just with a different person paying your your wage at the end of the month.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:21

I think it, it is that point, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:23

About having that reflection time and understanding what your drivers might

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:27

be for thinking that you, you want to move on and I think for me the way

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:32

you've described it, people might think is procedural, but actually it's really

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:35

important to understand what is it that you want, because again, it's like you

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:38

might think you want a new role or to work in a new organization, but actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:43

when you really take the time to dig a bit deeper, some of the things that

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:46

you might be looking for to get that career satisfaction or you know, that

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:50

development that you, that you really are striving for, you might get, be able

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:54

to get in the role that you are in and that might help you make a different

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:57

decision about whether you move on or not.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:59

I think something for me that's come up in that position where it's more about an

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:04

opportunity for you to grow and progress.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:07

And maybe it's when you've seen your, I dunno if there is such a things,

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:10

I'm doing it in bunny ears, your dream job somewhere else that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:13

think, yes, that's the job for me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:15

There have been occasions I know for me in my career, I have felt like I've wanted

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:21

to move on because I personally am ready for it, but I have almost felt a sense

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:26

of guilt tied into like loyalty to my team and organization because I haven't

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:31

been able to pinpoint there being like something wrong with where I am currently.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:36

So do you know, I dunno if you've ever had that, where it's like, you know, my team's

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:39

really good, they're really supportive.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:41

We're working really well, we're achieving lots.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:43

I work in an organization that's nice to work for with people who seem to

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:48

care about the people that work here.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:51

I get paid well, but actually I just personally feel ready for

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:56

that next step and that next thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:57

And sometimes for me, that's been associated almost with a sense of

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:01

guilt or feeling a bit selfish like.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:04

I shouldn't want to take that next step, even though I, I'm feeling like

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:08

it's right for me because there isn't anything wrong with the space that I'm in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:12

And I think sometimes that takes a bit of unpick to kind of get yourself in

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:16

that right head space to, to be okay with the fact that you want to strive for

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:20

the next thing or look to do something a bit different and that's all right.

Lee: 00:16:25

And I think that's where Exercises like the priorities wheel, are really

Lee: 00:16:31

helpful because you can almost take some of the emotion out of it and, and it

Lee: 00:16:36

starts to shine a light on the things that you value most in your career

Lee: 00:16:42

and in the type of job that you seek.

Lee: 00:16:44

And then you can almost do that, um, objective look at is this

Lee: 00:16:49

job currently giving that to me?

Lee: 00:16:51

Or what else would this job need to give me, for me to feel that this

Lee: 00:16:56

was a 10 outta 10 job in this aspect?

Lee: 00:16:59

So I do think having the ability to do something like that's quite important.

Lee: 00:17:03

I think the other thing that, um, also sometimes gets overlooked is the fact

Lee: 00:17:12

that you need to look at yourself in relation to the state your organization

Lee: 00:17:19

is in at that time, and maybe match your skill set with what it needs.

Lee: 00:17:27

Because I think particularly if you're at a more senior level that organizations

Lee: 00:17:33

do need different types of leaders for different types of scenarios.

Lee: 00:17:38

So if you are a leader who's brilliant at turnaround, But not so great at

Lee: 00:17:43

maybe bringing everyone together and doing the culture change piece.

Lee: 00:17:47

If your organization's done the turnaround and needs someone that can reconcile and

Lee: 00:17:53

bring people together and you know you are not that kind of person, then that maybe

Lee: 00:17:57

might make the decision for you that you need to go somewhere that's gonna give

Lee: 00:18:00

you, that's gonna match your skills in, in the best way, if that makes sense..

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:05

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:05

Absolutely does make sense.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:07

And I think just as you are speaking there, what's coming to mind for me is

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:10

the fact that actually very early on in my career, I don't think I was ever

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:15

encouraged particularly or given the tools to think about some of this for

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:19

myself, and it only actually for me feels quite recent that we are sort of having

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:25

conversations not just with leaders about, about anybody in the workplace,

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:29

really starting to think about what do they want to get out of their work life,

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:33

you know, is that something to do with being more balanced with their home life?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:37

What do they enjoy?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:38

What do they love?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:39

What do they, what are they good at?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:40

What, what are the things that make them want to poke their eyeballs

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:43

out do you know what I mean?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:44

Like I don't think we.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:46

I dunno, early in my career, I don't feel like I had a lot of

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:48

those conversations with anybody.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:50

But actually what I'm seeing more of now is, a bit more openness

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:54

to having those conversations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:56

And, and some of the exercises you've talked about and the, the mindset you've

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:00

talked about getting yourself into to, to consider what next in, in your

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:03

career, just Makes me think of, the Squiggly careers, which is a book and a

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:08

podcast by Sarah Ellis and Helen Tupper, where actually they start to give you

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:12

practical exercises and talk a lot about you working out, you know, where is it

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:17

that you want to go on this journey.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:18

And it's okay if it isn't linear and in a certain trajectory it's okay to

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:22

change and, and try different things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:24

And so, um, for me, I just think that kind of maybe more of a coaching

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:29

approach to thinking about your own career and where you want to go next

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:33

can be really valuable for sure.

Lee: 00:19:35

Yeah.

Lee: 00:19:36

The career wheel I talk about, there's a life wheel as well that you can do, which

Lee: 00:19:41

is very similar about understanding where does work, sit in your bigger priorities.

Lee: 00:19:46

And actually, you know, people can get into leadership roles and then

Lee: 00:19:52

realize this isn't for me and for, for the lifestyle I want or for, I don't

Lee: 00:19:59

want to work long hours culture, or I don't want to travel a lot or whatever.

Lee: 00:20:06

I don't want that responsibility of having to be the accountable person or

Lee: 00:20:10

the legal responsibilities or whatever it might be because all of this other

Lee: 00:20:15

stuff outside of work is more important and I'm not willing to compromise on

Lee: 00:20:19

that, that people do step away and that decision to change what they do comes

Lee: 00:20:25

from a sense of, well, you know what?

Lee: 00:20:27

I can drop in my salary because my priority is to be closer to home and work

Lee: 00:20:32

fewer days a week because I want to spend time with my family, or I want to go to

Lee: 00:20:36

the gym, or I want to, Fridays is my day.

Lee: 00:20:39

I want to go and get my nails done and go for a swim and have lunch with

Lee: 00:20:42

the girls, or whatever it might be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:57

So it feels like we've been talking about that space where really

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:01

we are owning our decision to make that move and decide that we're moving on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:05

Or maybe not.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:06

Maybe we are deciding we're staying, but we are doing a lot of proactive

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:09

work in the conversation that we've just had around kind of really

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:13

owning that and being in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:15

But we've touched on it a little bit, I think when you talked about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:18

Considering whether you are the right leader for an organization,

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:21

um, if your skill sets still match what that organization needs.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:25

There will be times potentially in our leadership careers where we are

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:28

sometimes forced into a decision about staying or going, and it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:32

usually about going, let's be honest.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:34

Um, that might be through a restructure, a change in leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:38

It might be a performance issue.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:41

It could, it could be a whole number of things that feel like they come

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:44

perhaps in a more negative kind of space with more negative connotations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:49

So what sort of advice would you give to leaders who are maybe finding themselves

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:53

in that situation where there's definitely a you will be going element to where

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:58

they're at in their career right now.

Lee: 00:23:01

We know that some organizations can be cutthroat and we probably

Lee: 00:23:06

all know someone that's been managed out of an organization.

Lee: 00:23:09

I definitely, I don't think I've worked for a single organization

Lee: 00:23:13

where I'm not aware of at least one person that's had the unfortunate,

Lee: 00:23:18

I dunno what the word is.

Lee: 00:23:19

I'm looking for circumstance.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:21

situation.

Lee: 00:23:22

situation where they've been let go.

Lee: 00:23:25

And I suppose what you notice is those, how different people handle things

Lee: 00:23:30

differently and what's a good way and perhaps a not great way to handle it.

Lee: 00:23:35

Um, Because to be frank, it's really shit, isn't it?

Lee: 00:23:38

If, if you are in that situation and usually there's stuff that leads up to

Lee: 00:23:44

that point of those discussions, so you're probably already feeling under the cosh.

Lee: 00:23:49

You are probably already questioning your abilities or confidence in yourself

Lee: 00:23:57

to be able to do certain things.

Lee: 00:23:59

And that just gets perpetuated as, as people start to have conversations

Lee: 00:24:03

about your future in an organization.

Lee: 00:24:06

And you need to deal with and process your emotions as you go through that.

Lee: 00:24:10

But I think in some ways, this is the point where your strategic brain really

Lee: 00:24:16

does need to kick in and you need to start thinking about the long game.

Lee: 00:24:21

And I know that's easier said than done, but even if you look at.

Lee: 00:24:26

I don't know, football managers, there's a real difference isn't there, between

Lee: 00:24:30

when the narrative of a football manager who sacked versus a mutual decision

Lee: 00:24:35

versus they've decided to step down.

Lee: 00:24:37

And so as early as you can take control of your narrative and the process

Lee: 00:24:44

you go through, the better, really.

Lee: 00:24:47

So whether it's things like how you agree about when it's gonna be announced,

Lee: 00:24:55

Having oversight of the coms, all of that.

Lee: 00:24:57

Don't leave that power to someone else.

Lee: 00:24:59

You, you need to own it because, obviously there's things like your legacy and your

Lee: 00:25:06

reputation that are at risk here, and, and so you do want to make sure that you

Lee: 00:25:10

are protecting that as much as possible.

Lee: 00:25:12

I do think there, there are exceptions to that type of situation though.

Lee: 00:25:18

So if you think you've been treated unfairly, Because you've

Lee: 00:25:23

been bullied or discriminated, then I do think that's different.

Lee: 00:25:26

And I think then you need to be checking in with your support network

Lee: 00:25:31

to get some perspective from them.

Lee: 00:25:33

Um, you might need maybe more of an independent conversation with someone

Lee: 00:25:38

more senior than your manager or a board member if you are in the board.

Lee: 00:25:44

It might be a designated person for whistle blowing

Lee: 00:25:46

if it is really that extreme.

Lee: 00:25:48

Don't forget, you are entitled to representation and and support.

Lee: 00:25:52

So I think particularly in those types of scenarios, your integrity as a

Lee: 00:25:59

leader and the bigger picture might mean that you need to put yourself in

Lee: 00:26:03

a difficult situation and speak out or make a stand and all of that stuff.

Lee: 00:26:07

And that can be hard.

Lee: 00:26:09

So I do think it's part circumstance.

Lee: 00:26:11

I think in every circumstance though as a leader, you need to

Lee: 00:26:15

try and have as much control of the narrative, if not the process.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:21

and I think the point you made about the emotional aspects of

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:24

that is really important, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:25

Because it can feel hard to take some of that control if you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:30

in a space where you are feeling very emotional about, about the

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:33

circumstance you find yourself in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:35

And for me, the point you made about support, I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:37

is, is a really crucial one.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:39

I think, whatever spectrum of that, um, Kind of process or circumstance

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:43

that, that you might find yourself in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:45

I think having that support network around you to help you process some of

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:49

that emotion and maybe look at it from a slightly, one step removed circumstance

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:56

is really helpful in that situation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:58

And that might be through a support network of peers, you know, professional

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:02

network that you're part of.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:03

Might be friends, it might be, um, it might be through coach and or mentor,

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:08

but I think having a safe space where you can have some of that conversation and

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:13

even talk about the fact that you want to take ownership of that narrative and,

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:17

and work through what that might look and feel like for you and work through some

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:21

of the potential responses that you might anticipate getting from your organization

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:25

if you try to, to take that control, I think can be really helpful for sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:30

There was also a little bit that I wanted to touch on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:32

It's a slight aside, a slight, a slight digress, I would say, but often in

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:37

circumstances where there is a change in leadership, in an organization, a

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:42

restructure, something's happening.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:45

And we've talked about being emotionally invested in things as well as a

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:48

leader, I guess there's that bit for me sometimes how, and you touched on it

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:53

around what does the organization need earlier, but there's that bit about

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:57

as a leader sometimes the organization maybe does need something different.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:03

Maybe there's a bigger purpose or a bigger cause that means some leaders

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:07

might need to step up and do something that truly is for the greater good, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:12

that, that can be really entrenched in what your own personal circumstances.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:17

And I guess, you know, I, I just wonder how many leaders will truly, maybe

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:22

make some decisions about leaving an organization, and you talked about

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:26

football managers stepping down.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:27

It's not just in sport, is it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:29

But how many leaders I wonder, would, would truly recognize that actually now's

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:33

the time for me to go, because I'm doing a disservice to my organization, my team,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:38

or whatever, and how many people might be hanging on because they do have those

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:42

personal circumstances, like paying a mortgage, for example, to consider?.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:46

One of the things I wanted to just briefly explore before I move us on into

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:50

a bit of a different space, around the question of should you stay or should

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:53

you go is, Sometimes you make a decision that it's your time to move on and

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:58

you want to leave, and you are in that position and kind of preparing yourself

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:02

for it and then people, uh, sweep in and go, no, we don't want you to go.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:06

Please don't go.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:07

We want you to stay.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:08

What can we do to make you stay?

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:10

And, and you can quite easily, I think, sometimes get caught up in

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:13

the kind of wow factor of like, people don't want me to leave.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:16

I'm having such an impact here.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:18

I just wondered what you might consider if you were in that position

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:21

of, of potentially almost being ready, to make that step and leave

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:25

and then people are trying to convince you that, that you should stay.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:28

And I guess some of it'll be the same as the advice you've already given but

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:31

I can see that some of us, maybe some of us extroverts in particular might

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:36

be easily flattered into thinking it would be a good idea to stay, I just

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:40

wanted to get your views on that lee.

Lee: 00:29:41

So.

Lee: 00:29:42

Uh, I think I've referenced this TV show before and you

Lee: 00:29:45

would think I absolutely love

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:47

Colombo.

Lee: 00:29:47

No bull,

Lee: 00:29:49

I watch it, but it isn't, I can't say it's like a massive favorite of mine.

Lee: 00:29:53

I do moan about it most weeks.

Lee: 00:29:54

I'm not just randomly , but it's an interesting point because

Lee: 00:29:57

one of the lead characters, is really unhappy in the workplace.

Lee: 00:30:03

It's been schmoozed by another company.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:06

Is this gonna be another spoiler alert that we

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:08

have to let listeners know about

Lee: 00:30:10

Oh yeah, potentially, potentially maybe, maybe not.

Lee: 00:30:14

I've try, I'll try not to give too much away.

Lee: 00:30:16

So she's been schmoozed by another company.

Lee: 00:30:20

The boss gets wind, doesn't get wind, actually just sees her out at lunch

Lee: 00:30:24

with this other person, schmoozing her, offers her what he thinks

Lee: 00:30:29

she wants, so she decides to stay.

Lee: 00:30:32

Then the schmoozer person comes in with a better offer.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:36

person, I love it.

Lee: 00:30:38

comes in with a better offer, and at that point she decided she was

Lee: 00:30:44

gonna go even though boss has decided he's going to do everything he can

Lee: 00:30:48

to keep her, but it comes down to the fundamental thing around she didn't

Lee: 00:30:54

actually want all the bells and whistles.

Lee: 00:30:55

She wanted the value to be felt and for her boss to understand the value that she

Lee: 00:31:01

actually was adding to the organization.

Lee: 00:31:03

So it wasn't about getting a partnership or any of this kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:31:07

So she actually did leave regardless of them giving her everything

Lee: 00:31:10

that she, they thought she wanted.

Lee: 00:31:14

So I say that to say, I think it goes back to there's obviously an

Lee: 00:31:20

underlying reason that you are thinking about wanting to go or decided to go.

Lee: 00:31:26

What's actually going to change if you stay?

Lee: 00:31:29

And is that the thing that you've, back to that first premise of

Lee: 00:31:34

is it realistic and achieveable?

Lee: 00:31:35

Are they gonna make that change or are they just gonna say that they are to

Lee: 00:31:38

keep you, but you're gonna be in the same place in 3, 4, 5 months time?

Lee: 00:31:43

Again, this is where the career priorities wheel I think it's

Lee: 00:31:45

really helpful tool for you to start to weigh up the pros and cons.

Lee: 00:31:50

It's a bit like, uh, Ross in Friends when he's doing his pros and cons for Julie.

Lee: 00:31:55

And, um,

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:56

Oh, we're gonna go there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:58

We're go, go.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:59

Now be asking the question, were they on a break or not?

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:01

And, and I'm properly digressing now.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:04

I saw a brilliant clip on social media about somebody bought a doormat.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:08

Said, were Ross and Rachel on a

Lee: 00:32:10

yes, I've seen that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:11

and, and people were leaving their parcels with whether

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:13

they thought they were or they weren't.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:15

But anyway, we're, we're not doing a podcast series on reviewing TV

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:18

shows, by the way, for anyone who might have only just started listening

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:22

at this point in the episode,

Lee: 00:32:24

I think it might be my side hustle though.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:25

yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:26

Future spinoff series.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:27

I'm, I'm all for it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:28

But anyway, sorry, I've totally distracted you now.

Lee: 00:32:31

But I'm, the, the point I make slightly in jest, but is an important

Lee: 00:32:36

one, is the pros and cons of you've mapped out your priorities and that's led you

Lee: 00:32:42

to a decision around you want to leave.

Lee: 00:32:44

If, if someone's trying to woo you back or, or get you to stay, is it ticking

Lee: 00:32:50

those boxes that have said you're gonna go and is it just, are they BSing

Lee: 00:32:55

you or is it really going to deliver

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:58

Will there be an actual change?

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:00

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:01

So I'm gonna move us on now because I'm conscious that this is an

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:04

episode that feels like we could keep talking about for a really long time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:07

We focused a lot in this episode so far on you as an individual, personal

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:12

choices for you, things that impact you personally as a leader and impact your

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:17

career, but obviously as a leader you have responsibility for leading a team or an

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:22

organization and when you are preparing to leave or you've made a decision to leave

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:28

or you're being moved on, whatever the circumstances that that is leading to you

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:32

leaving that organization or that team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:34

I guess I'm just interested in exploring a little bit around what support

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:39

and how do you support the team that you are leading to kind of deal with

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:43

the fact that you are moving on?.

Lee: 00:33:45

I think there are two ways people handle it.

Lee: 00:33:48

So you've got the responsible way, which is what we are

Lee: 00:33:50

gonna talk about in in detail.

Lee: 00:33:53

You do have individuals who handle it irresponsibly and and clock out before

Lee: 00:33:57

they leave and don't think about it.

Lee: 00:33:59

Now I think I have issues with that because I think you need to exit

Lee: 00:34:04

well from any organization because it's your legacy, your reputation,

Lee: 00:34:10

it affects future employment opportunities, all of that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:34:13

So that's why earlier on I was talking about your narrative and I think part

Lee: 00:34:17

of the narrative is about helping your team to understand your decisions

Lee: 00:34:21

to go and also big up your team and, and the achievements that they've

Lee: 00:34:26

had and the proud moments that you have had as a leader of that team.

Lee: 00:34:32

I suppose where you see the team and the organization going in the future,

Lee: 00:34:38

because that's all part of your legacy narrative and part of the spiel you

Lee: 00:34:43

are gonna take with you into your next role, whatever that might be.

Lee: 00:34:48

I think there's practical things about making the handover easy and that

Lee: 00:34:54

transition for the new leader that's gonna come into your post so that your team

Lee: 00:34:58

don't feel as disrupted as as possible.

Lee: 00:35:01

So obviously have a clear handover.

Lee: 00:35:05

Be really conscious about not being negative about the organization.

Lee: 00:35:10

That whole clocking off thing.

Lee: 00:35:11

Don't be demob happy.

Lee: 00:35:13

Um, Think about how you can support the incumbent person who

Lee: 00:35:18

might be coming into your role.

Lee: 00:35:21

So if it's someone maybe who's already working in the organization, how

Lee: 00:35:25

could you perhaps do a, a gradual handover of responsibilities so that

Lee: 00:35:30

they are getting to know the team and you are starting to exit gracefully.

Lee: 00:35:36

Obviously think about how you want to be treated going into your new

Lee: 00:35:40

role, if you have one lined up.

Lee: 00:35:43

And use that to consider the type of experience you want

Lee: 00:35:46

to leave for your successor.

Lee: 00:35:48

I think's a really important one.

Lee: 00:35:50

, Make sure you are saying thank you to people that supported you along

Lee: 00:35:54

the way, because you never know when you are gonna encounter them again.

Lee: 00:35:59

They'll crop up, I'm sure, particularly if you stay in the same sector.

Lee: 00:36:03

And I think my final thing is you need to find a way to manage your feelings

Lee: 00:36:09

and emotions through this whole period of time because you are leaving

Lee: 00:36:16

and the organization will move on.

Lee: 00:36:20

That probably will start before you actually leave the building.

Lee: 00:36:24

And it can be hard not to take that personally.

Lee: 00:36:28

So part of your managing your exit is to, I suppose, understand that that's

Lee: 00:36:34

gonna happen and get okay with that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:37

And, and I think link to that point for me and building on that would

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:40

be the point that it, it's alright to tell your team that that's okay as well

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:44

because I think there will be people in the team that you are leaving that will

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:48

have a, you'd hope, would have a sense of loyalty to you and the way that you've

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:53

work together, and I, and I think you, you do have a responsibility to let your team

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:58

know that actually change might come, but it's really important for them to be able

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:04

to continue to demonstrate in your absence all the great things that they deliver

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:08

and that they do, and to help give them a voice with a new leader that's coming in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:13

That means they feel able to articulate that really well, but also give them

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:17

that opportunity to, I guess, to think about the fact that there might be some

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:21

change to come for them, and that's okay.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:23

And that, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:25

Actually, that's potentially an opportunity for them because I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:29

sometimes the team's gonna worry, we've got the team exactly how we like it,

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:32

we like the way we operate, we feel really comfortable with each other.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:36

We feel like we are in a safe space, and that's all gonna change.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:40

And I, I think you do have a responsibility to help some of

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:42

your teamwork through that well..

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:44

It feels like it's about time to move us on to that point in the episode where

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:49

we draw things to a close with our top takeaways and how to, so for me, I just

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:54

wanted your thoughts, Lee, on how you create the space and conditions to really

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:59

think about as a leader, whether you should stay or whether you should go?

Lee: 00:38:03

So I think for me, Your job is part of your life.

Lee: 00:38:09

So I think you need to consider it as part of the bigger picture.

Lee: 00:38:13

So the career priorities wheel I think is a really useful tool to

Lee: 00:38:18

give you that space in terms of the asking different questions that

Lee: 00:38:23

might lead you to, to an answer.

Lee: 00:38:25

And it'll shine the light on compromises you might need to make and the

Lee: 00:38:29

conflicts that might arise as well.

Lee: 00:38:31

I think it can be easy in the moment, particularly if you have a really

Lee: 00:38:37

shitty day to think oh that's it.

Lee: 00:38:39

I need to go.

Lee: 00:38:40

It could be easier said than done, but even just going, taking yourself

Lee: 00:38:44

off to a coffee shop for a couple of hours with a notebook and just

Lee: 00:38:49

getting down in your head some of those things you prioritize is, it is just

Lee: 00:38:54

a good starting point to ask those questions around what needs to change.

Lee: 00:38:58

Then ask the question at the end of day, what needs to change and is it

Lee: 00:39:01

realistic for it to happen here?

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:03

Absolutely, and I think the only thing I would add is as, as

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:06

a top tip would be about your support network and making sure you've got

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:10

that around you to be able to have a space to, and a sounding board to have

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:14

some of those conversations out loud.

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:16

I think once you've started to get some clarity or at least hope

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:19

to get that clarity in your head, it can be helpful just to, To

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:23

test that out with other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:24

So think about that and whether or not your coach or mentor, if you've got one,

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:28

is a possible space and opportunity for you to start, thinking through some